Lacking that extra gear

[Naj]

As Alice points out, there's a big cultural difference between UK training and the rest of the world, especially the States. When I started back in the late 60s in the UK it was traditional not to touch a pup until it was 6 - 9 months old, mainly because the methods in common use would squash a pup's drive if applied before they had become mentally & physically mature. There's a bit of a hang-over to those days still in evidence today with the (misguided) fear of knocking a dogs drive if training starts early, even though methods might be softer these days. And the other major difference is that not many have the opportunity to regularly shoot over their dogs in the UK so interest revolves around training, whereas in the rest of the world the majority of hunters get a dog to add to their shooting experience so interest revolves around shooting/hunting. That's why in the States you see handlers thinking their dog is ready for hunting/shooting when it gets to around 6 months of age. It's also fairly common in the States to start pups on pigeons & game right from the get-go, so by 6 months a pup can be pretty experienced around birds. Our animal welfare laws limit what we can do with captive birds but much still can be done if you have the facilities.

Naj

It's the introduction of live game so early that strikes me as the biggest cultural difference. I see lots of photos and videos of very young pups learning to chase down and catch pigeons and chukkar - this particular friend also has a minor spaniel breed, where I can imagine the early game exposure being very helpful...but with 'major' breeds, do they need it so young? Gundogguy or others may be able to explain why?

Why shouldn't they? Especially if you want to start shooting over them at what many in the UK would think of as indecently young. The 'what's the rush' attitude generally adopted in the UK is a moot point. Yes, it takes a dog 3 years or so to physically & mentally mature, but they (physically) peak at 6 years of age, pick up (bad) habits and possibly injuries as they go along and how many dogs are virtually retired by the time they're eight. Not a long working life if you start later. These days I don't like to waste a pup in its prime & start shooting over a dog as soon as I feel it is able & am happy to fine tune the training on the job. And I don't think starting on game early is a case of 'need' but of expedience. Much of the problems handlers have with steadiness is because they aren't able to access birds early enough & so have to concentrate on 'putting in the brakes' rather than develop self control on the real thing, so when the two meet the first thing to fail are the 'brakes'. My current GSP was a competent game finder by 6 months of age, hunted in relation to me, was free of chase, pointed staunchly and was adept at working moving game. I shot my first pheasant over her point at 8 months of age but I could have started earlier in hindsight. I believe she is a better shooting dog for having been experienced in that way rather than through the more conventional UK approach.

Naj

[Dawnrazor]

Do you remember Wullie the, I think, the Scottish Flatcoat retriever club or society members that came to Penicuik House when John was there? There was an old lady that came called Molly, she was about 117 years old at the time!! She had a liver Flatcoat dog that was OK but most I saw weren't up to much I'm afraid. I've only ever saw one good golden, but I've not seen many, although I think the big rich dark coloured goldens are magnificent looking animals. I remember when,not too many years ago, that cockers were considered a "minor" breed, many more litters of Welsh springers were advertised in the Shooting Times. I still think the HPR breeds are "minor" but I suppose our native Pointers could classed as such. I've never seen any other spaniel breed work in the field, a couple of mates have had a clumber, but I wouldn't give one kennel room, cute pups but grow up to be........well, clumbers!!!

[Judy]

I'm ashamed to say I went to help at a Flatcoat Test a few years ago and there were only two out of the 40+ that I wanted to take home, its partly the fault of the trainers I think - most of them are keener on Shows than work and, of course, they suffer from most good trainers ditching the breed and ending up in Labs because they want to win competitions. I was lucky in that mine were all bloody good picking up dogs with plenty of go but how much of that was training and how much was from picking the right pup in the first place? The dogs lacked go, they lacked hunting enthusiasm and lacked marking ability, sad but a result of the powers that be being solely interested in breeding dogs with good show conformation first and foremost with working ability a secondary consideration. Whereas if bred for work we want dogs that work well and have the conformation to work all day which is different although it shouldn't be.

Naj, shooting over your own dogs is, I guess, somewhat different to taking your dogs picking up? On the former you can pick and choose what and when you shoot and what you send the pup for, on the latter you need a dog with at least some self control embedded and a modicum of training otherwise it can all go tits up very quickly, hence rather more maturity before introducing the youngster to game.

[Naj]

Judy, the Flatcoats that lacked 'go', was that on dummies in the test or when working out on real game?

As regards entering when young, very good for the questing breeds but I don't see why it shouldn't be the same for the pure retrievers or those spaniels etc being used for picking-up. The whole point of it is that you're teaching self-control at a critical period in development which will than translate into you having greater control around game, if that is what you are looking for. Admittedly, it is harder for a lot of handlers who lack the facilities. But I'm not sure why you're questioning it, seeing as your pups exercise among wabbits on a daily basis yet are used for picking-up!!!

Naj

[Judy]

They don't get to pick up wabbits, well, not often anyway. I have seen a few take their youngsters out picking up, it invariably ends in tears.

This particular occasion was on dummies but given they mostly had difficulty finding their tea in a bowl they weren't going to be much better on a shoot day. Have been to a couple of Trials not too long ago and most of them were much the same, with the odd standout dog of course. Must make an effort to go watch one again, see if they are as bad as I remember! I likes a dog with go even if the stop is less than perfect!

[trekmoor]

Do you remember Wullie the, I think, the Scottish Flatcoat retriever club or society members that came to Penicuik House when John was there? There was an old lady that came called Molly, she was about 117 years old at the time!! She had a liver Flatcoat dog that was OK but most I saw weren't up to much I'm afraid.

The old lady was Molly Marquis and she had flatcoats and two of them were good but not brilliant. There was another lady who also had flatcoats and hers were considerably better but she wanted to make the breed in general better still. She offered me and several other trailers (whose names you would easily recognise) flatcoat pups for free but with conditions attached.

The conditions went something like .....we [the trailers] would own the pups but we had to report on them back to her and if they were good enough, then we had to trial them. She would then decide which bitches would be mated to which dogs . I thought it was a really good idea to place pups with people who were proving they were capable of winning trials but I'm sorry to say that not even one lab trailer would take on a flatcoat pup ........including me.

In my case I already had a "full house" ......... I had 3 labs and lived on the top storey of a council flat block ! I just could not take any more dogs. The other lads had other reasons ........most of them just did not like the flatcoat style of working.

I must be one of the very few retriever trial judges that has ever awarded a place in a trial to a flatcoat. I was very much a junior judge so I had to argue quite hard with the other judges to get that dog it's place. I've never been frightened to have an argument though so I got that dog an award.......it may have been the last flatcoat in Scotland to ever gain a trial award.

The flatcoat lady's next plan to improve the breed went badly wrong , or so I was told. She wanted to take two or three of the best working flatcoat bitches she could find and mate them to a very carefully chosen Labrador dog ! Somebody shopped her to the kennel club I think and they jumped up and down on her ........HARD !

Personally I thought this was a good idea , labs have got a dose of flatcoat in them anyway and in just a few generations it would be a flatcoat for looks once more but maybe with a bit more of the labs "work ethics ?"

I saw that lady again about 7 years ago, she now holds spaniel trials on her estate ! I salute her for doing the best she could for her chosen breed for, when I saw her, she still had an old flatcoat.

I have seen some truly excellent goldies . I saw them knock spots off the labs in a few tests and in one or two trials. Unfortunately the breed sort of bred itself into a corner . It was few in number and the better dogs got mated together maybe just a bit too much ? I'm told this situation is now being improved but not that I've noticed up here so far.

My local keeper had a really good goldie male and it was used for absolutely everything.....including fox killing ......and yet he remained soft mouthed and fairly easy to control. He was the keepers favourite dog and had matings to a few bitches . The keeper took pups as stud fees but none of the pups were much good at all ....... I tried training one of them but ............he lacked that extra gear !

Wullie

[Dawnrazor]

Molly Marquis!!!! That's her, Christ that takes me back!!!
Got to admit I think both the other lady's ideas were bang on, including adding a touch of labrador, it's a good job the kennel club have not dug too deeply into springer being added to cockers!!! They'd never be out of court!!!!

[Strathcraig]

Not to mention everything that's been added to Labradors. Listen to Mary Roslin-Williams on YouTube, it would curl you hair.

[Dawnrazor]

Not to mention everything that's been added to Labradors. Listen to Mary Roslin-Williams on YouTube, it would curl you hair.

There's an old retired keeper from Whitehill estate, I'm sure Wullie will know him, Sam, to describe him as a character is an understatement!!! He hails from Ayrshire, he came to Midlothian in about the late 70's, he came with labradors, he got his from his father who got them from his, as Sam in now 80 odd you can figure out how far back were going! A couple of them were marked like a rottweiler, black and tan, the black one often came a bronze colour and the yellow ones were very dark red, none were pedigreed. They came originally from Buccleuch keeper's, some bitches were taken to Dumfriesshire fox hounds to improve nose, these in turn were put back to labradors, a three quarter bred, these in turn were absorbed in the labrador breeding programme. Every now and then one with the Fox hound markings would turn up, these often would be put down at birth but wives and children would often take a shine to them and these could got cheap!!
A few years ago there was a bit of a stooshie when two black and tan labs were registered by the Kc!! What's in the roots will come out in the branches!

[trekmoor]

I have seen and I have trained well bred tri-colour labs although not as gundogs. I have seen "snowdrop labs" .........you may be able to google search these and other lab colours.

Not surprising really because to the original "lab" ....the Small St. John's Dog ...... a number of people added other breeds in an effort to improve those original dogs. There is fairly good evidence for both foxhound and for pointer but also flatcoat, collie and probably a few others too. Our ancestors were more concerned with how well the dogs worked than with the purity of pedigrees and the dogs that didn't work in the desired way got culled.

One old lady I bought lab pups from still culled anything she didn't like in a litter in the same way her father who also worked and bred labs had done. She threw undesirable pups hard into the stone of her kennels wall !

There used to be a keeper in S.Scotland called Jock Wheelans . He deliberately bred labs to pointers .........and he wasn't the only one. I knew a landowner in Fife who did the same and I met a couple of other shooting gents who also favoured this cross. This sort of breeding is in the lab breed.

Labs are not "pure bred." No dog is really.

Wullie