Looking for a suitable Springer stud dog

Questions and discussions on breeding your dogs
Judy
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Re: Looking for a suitable Springer stud dog

Post by Judy »

Dawnrazor wrote:I'd bin looking at that KC coefficient nonsense, load of bollox.
You been drinking again DR? :lol: Unfortunately its something that should be considered, if you want Springers as a breed to exist in 50 years time, not that that is likely to worry you or I? However, its only a part of the decision when it comes to breeding, health and two decent (physically and work-wise) animals to put together matter just as much.
In life, it is important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.
Dawnrazor
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Re: Looking for a suitable Springer stud dog

Post by Dawnrazor »

Judy wrote:
Dawnrazor wrote:I'd bin looking at that KC coefficient nonsense, load of bollox.
You been drinking again DR? :lol: Unfortunately its something that should be considered, if you want Springers as a breed to exist in 50 years time, not that that is likely to worry you or I? However, its only a part of the decision when it comes to breeding, health and two decent (physically and work-wise) animals to put together matter just as much.
Sober as a judge!!
Nonsense, Springers have been around for a couple of hundreds of years as we know them, they will be here in fifty, apply a bit of common sense in the choice of sire, heath tested if you like. It seems to me that people are unable to make a bloody decision without first consulting the Kc coefficient site, how did Selwyn Jones, Joe Greatrex, Keith Erlandson ever get on without it??!!
Look for a healthy sire, not overly close to your bitch which should add to the qualities of your bitch......job done.
Sgurr
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Re: Looking for a suitable Springer stud dog

Post by Sgurr »

Given that according to MyKC Huckleberry Finn was born in 1992, unless there is frozen semen available (unlikely) I would say he is down and out. Mark Twain was notorious for his sense of humour - and I believe, said the reports of his death were much exagerrated. Are you pulling a leg or two, or four, Lizpart?
Sgurr
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Re: Looking for a suitable Springer stud dog

Post by Sgurr »

Dawnrazor wrote:
Judy wrote:
Dawnrazor wrote:I'd bin looking at that KC coefficient nonsense, load of bollox.
Nonsense, Springers have been around for a couple of hundreds of years as we know them, they will be here in fifty, apply a bit of common sense in the choice of sire, heath tested if you like. It seems to me that people are unable to make a bloody decision without first consulting the Kc coefficient site, how did Selwyn Jones, Joe Greatrex, Keith Erlandson ever get on without it??!!
Look for a healthy sire, not overly close to your bitch which should add to the qualities of your bitch......job done.
Wright's Co-efficient of Inbreeding (the same one that the KC use today) was forumulated and used extensively from the 1920's with various stock breeds - so all the breeders you mention were in a position to be aware of COI and how to use it (especially those with close connections to the USA where Wright worked). Maybe they used COI but did not tell anyone else..... I think it is a given now that Erlander did outcrosses with Cockers (eg Gwibernant Llewellyn) and maybe the best reason to do this was to reduce the COI.
I think COI is a useful tool - Dawnspringer thinks it is a load of bollox. I have my opinion, you have yours.
Lizpart
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Re: Looking for a suitable Springer stud dog

Post by Lizpart »

Sgurr wrote:Given that according to MyKC Huckleberry Finn was born in 1992, unless there is frozen semen available (unlikely) I would say he is down and out. Mark Twain was notorious for his sense of humour - and I believe, said the reports of his death were much exagerrated. Are you pulling a leg or two, or four, Lizpart?
Ok research maybe flawed I was looking on the gundogclub.co.uk website. It was a dog based in Dorset and posted on 16 July 2016.
Dawnrazor
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Re: Looking for a suitable Springer stud dog

Post by Dawnrazor »

Sgurr wrote: Nonsense, Springers have been around for a couple of hundreds of years as we know them, they will be here in fifty, apply a bit of common sense in the choice of sire, heath tested if you like. It seems to me that people are unable to make a bloody decision without first consulting the Kc coefficient site, how did Selwyn Jones, Joe Greatrex, Keith Erlandson ever get on without it??!!
Look for a healthy sire, not overly close to y

Wright's Co-efficient of Inbreeding (the same one that the KC use today) was forumulated and used extensively from the 1920's with various stock breeds - so all the breeders you mention were in a position to be aware of COI and how to use it (especially those with close connections to the USA where Wright worked). Maybe they used COI but did not tell anyone else..... I think it is a given now that Erlander did outcrosses with Cockers (eg Gwibernant Llewellyn) and maybe the best reason to do this was to reduce the COI.
I think COI is a useful tool - Dawnspringer thinks it is a load of bollox. I have my opinion, you have yours.
I doubt coefficient even entered the heads of the breeders that developed the springer spaniel, do you think Keith Erlandson would have missed a chance to preach to the masses how much more intelligent, scientific and forward thinking he was compared to the rest of the spaniel world??!! I very much doubt!!!! He took Breconhill Brando to Conigree Simon on numerous occasions not because of coefficient but because he was the hardest going dog in the country at the time, he tells us this, the O'Vara springers were very closely line/in bred by Selwyn Jones to produce probably the finest kennel of springers there has ever been and to which, I suspect, every working/trialing bred springer today will go back to if you look back far enough, does such close breeding sound like coefficient was considered? You have your view and I have mine.
If you put a good, healthy well bred bitch to a good healthy, well bred dog that's not too closely related and both parents are free from hard mouth, noise, have good stamina, I think this is a sensible policy for breeding gundogs, I' d get a pup from someone who has the experience and knowledge of working spaniels and has chosen a sire to compliment the bitch than someone who breeds a bitch to a dog they have little or no knowledge of, or its ancestors because some computer program says this is the thing to do.
Sgurr
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Re: Looking for a suitable Springer stud dog

Post by Sgurr »

I've seen the Gundog Club ad and the pet name is Huckleberry Fin and the pedigree name is Yellow Hill Buzzbee. Neither Yellow Hill Buzzbee nor Yellowhill Buzzbee are on MyKC but there is a Yellowhill Buzz.
To go back to the ad, the important point is it does not say the dog is proven but the owner is 'looking for a calm bitch' and wants to keep a pup. To me it sounds as though the dog has not been used before.
The lines given Clarburgh Art (everywhere) and Edwardiana Twany (presumably Edwardiana Tawny). Tawny had five litters with four different sires. One sire has thrown pups Affected G, one is a tested Carrier of PRA Cord 1 and of the other two, one has a PRA Cord1 Carrier pup (could be the bitch line) but the other has thrown PRA Cord 1 Carriers by three different bitches.

May I suggest that while looking for a good stud dog well before he is needed is a very sensible approach, even better would be to health test your bitch to see if there are any issues which would rule her out as a breeding bitch. If she is OK healthwise, then assess her strengths and weaknesses when working and look for a stud to complement them.
Naj
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Re: Looking for a suitable Springer stud dog

Post by Naj »

Re , Selwyn Jones and Greatorex, the great kennels did line breed to produce consistent results and a certain stamp of dog but they were primarily interested in producing shooting dogs for the field and field trials were more like an old boys club in their day. In today's competitive climate where dogs are essentially being bred at the top primarily to win field trials it would be little use turning out a litter of pups that were all the same like peas in a pod. You need something different from the rest and on trend to win these days and a close line breeding policy just works against that. The other thing that has changed is that breeders would have been better placed to follow the pups they produced and culled routhlessly any sub standard stock, so genetic problems were never allowed to develop. And bloodlines were quite diverse quite simply because we weren't so mobile back then. Erlandson would have been heavily influenced by these breeders and I don't think many today realise that the strength of his kennel was as much based upon the dogs he considered sub standard that ended up in a hole in the ground as the dogs we saw winning field trials. The conygree Simon/Smut breeding was contentious because many thought it brought with it not only heat but also mouth problems and Erlandson was quick to cull any pup that had issues in this department. Mouth apart, culling pups was seen as almost the duty of a responsible breeder and litters might have been culled simply on numbers, size of individual pups or even colour. So these old breeders might not have known much about COI but they knew a bit about line breeding and they took the responsibility to take problem dogs out the gene pool. :think:

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Alice
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Re: Looking for a suitable Springer stud dog

Post by Alice »

Dawnrazor wrote:I'd bin looking at that KC coefficient nonsense, load of bollox.
What dogs/bitches are in the first three generations?
What's the bitch like - Big, small, hard, soft, nervy, bold,?
What are you looking for in a stud dog?
ere don't knock it DR, just put your dog in and she could use him and be under the average COI :lol: :lol:
cheers,
Alice.

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Judy
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Re: Looking for a suitable Springer stud dog

Post by Judy »

If dogs get like their owners you wouldn't want to use DR's :shock:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
In life, it is important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.
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