blinds and non-blinds.

[trekmoor]

I have a fault with my own description of "blind retrieves." In truth some of them are a form of "memory retrieve." A prime example of this was posted by me only minutes ago when describing two blind retrieves done today by "Bee" the 5 months old springer pup I'm messing about with.

I said she'd done a 30 and a 40 yard long blind retrieve and in a sense she did for she was in the kennel as I placed those dummies.....BUT ......she had done this "run down the road for a dummy" thing several times in the last couple of weeks so this was really just her going back to where she'd picked up dummies before ........ a form of memory retrieve.

Twice in my life I have seen dogs sold on the basis of so called blind retrieves that were actually memory retrieves. If those 200 yards + blind retrieves had been given in a place the dogs had never found dummies before I seriously doubt if the dummies would ever have been found.
The owners of those dogs even had the cheek to mention that the blinds had been done with no extra commands .

When a dog does that sort of blind/memory retrieve at distance it is glaringly obvious to an experienced gun-dog trainer that the retrieve was not really a blind retrieve.

I am guilty of sometimes calling memory retrieves blind retrieves if the dog has not seen the dummy placed .........that day ! My apologies for any confusion this may have caused to newbie trainers on here.
It is true that some dogs seem to have much better memory's than others , those "others" may have been doing "real blinds" due to lack of memory but this does not apply to Bee who has a memory I wouldn't mind having myself !

Wullie

[newf]

Agree with everything you say. Guess we like to stay in the area that the dog rarely fails...the memory. It can be scary to both the trainer and the dog attempting to do a real blind. You know how it is...you send the dog on a real blind in a strange area and the dog runs out a little unsure made obvious by its gait, then the pop...you begin waving and yelling 'back'. Dog goes a few yards ahead or worst starts hunting in circles, so you frustratingly whistle the dog and repeat back with the waving...dog looks at you with what looks to be the expression of 'what the feck do you want, I'm looking'. You decide, since you started something and realize you have to convince the dog one way or the other, something is out there, so you follow the confused dog stumbling and cursing as you both move ahead towards the 'blind plant' in the most haphazard way one could think of, until finally, the bewildered dog stumbles upon the dummy. You exclaim a half-hearted "gooood boy" to your dog thinking, thank goodness that is over. So, you say to yourself, "we're not ready for this punishment yet, better to go back to the safe memories and permanents". These being fun and self rewarding naturally have a alluring affect in contrast to the terrifying adjustment to authentic 'blind' reality.

Or, it may be just me that has went through this unfortunate scenario.

[Judy]

That did make me chuckle, how many times have I worn that tee shirt? Doesn't happen quite so much these days, am I getting better at training or are the Cockers just soooo much brighter than my Flatcoats?

[Nickheref]

I

When a dog does that sort of blind/memory retrieve at distance it is glaringly obvious to an experienced gun-dog trainer that the retrieve was not really a blind retrieve.

I am guilty of sometimes calling memory retrieves blind retrieves if the dog has not seen the dummy placed .........that day !

Wullie

But isn't that how you teach blind retrieves, I do it with lots of memories of increasing difficulty and fewer and fewer straight marked retrieves teaching the dog that if I give it a direction I am always right and it will find it, but as a rough shooter I tend to make them about 60 yards max initially as I rarely shoot birds that fall 300 yards away, later increasing the distance if necessary. In the first seasons shooting I will only give a young dog blinds that I am 99.9% certain it will find and just reinforce what it learnt on dummies (I avoid the "I think I might have dropped one over by the tree in the distance" brigade with youngsters) . After that they have enough belief in me, as a combination of being sent on marked and genuine blinds and succeeding, to go in the direction I have given them as fast as if they had seen it.

[trekmoor]

Yes, it is how you teach a blind retrieve but it is not a blind retrieve. It is a type of memory retrieve.
Calling it a blind retrieve is a bit of wishful thinking on my part and on the part of many other gundog trainers.

Wullie

[Nickheref]

Yes, it is how you teach a blind retrieve but it is not a blind retrieve. It is a type of memory retrieve.
Calling it a blind retrieve is a bit of wishful thinking on my part and on the part of many other gundog trainers.

Wullie

I see, you mean in training taking the dog to the same place where it has done a few and claiming the dog didn't have a clue that there might be a dummy there whereas if it had half a brain it knew there might be, a bit like hunting a dog in a rabbit pen where it fully expects there to be rabbits and claiming it will hunt in the same way somewhere where there is no scent at all!

[trekmoor]

Yep, something like that.

Wullie

[munstyman]

When a dog does that sort of blind/memory retrieve at distance it is glaringly obvious to an experienced gun-dog trainer that the retrieve was not really a blind retrieve.

Doesn't it just
I recall a test, where the person that had set the test also ran a dog in it. Of course he was adamant that his dog had not been used to set up the test...but the other runners were less than convinced
When it came to the `blind' , sure enough the dog went straight out and picked from cover without any handling ( and it wasn't a straight out run either ) On seeing this the `gallery' all knew what had gone on, so we decided to have a `best of the rest competition' on that one
All credit to the judge though, who put in an `extra test' later that day, another blind, and a true one for `all ' dogs. Needless to say the truth came out when a certain dog had to be handled....and couldn't

[Naj]

I think we all do this to some extent, because we generally train on familiar ground and certain spots lend themselves to certain retrieve scenarios so dogs become familiar with them. And we're also creatures of habit. It's just a form of place training and no bad thing at that. It gives the dogs confidence and eventually the behaviour becomes generalised and will stand on its own.

Naj

[Judy]

I can remember totally bemusing someone when I said I took dog and dummy into the woods on a walk / training session but the dog didn't get any retrieves because I couldn't think of anything different to do. The same chap said he didn't know why his dog flunked a retrieve because the one she did at home was twice that distance...