sprocker spaniel

[Sgurr]

I'll ask the breeder for the exact cost and post it later. But for now, I paid the full price which was Euro 900 for the bitch (Belgian Championship Winner x Dutch Novice Championship Winner), all vaccinations including rabies (breeder has to keep pup to 4 months old for this), vet check and treatments, microchip and Pet Passport, A4 laminated official pedigree/registration and DNA profile. So with that package, the Registration fee can't be through the roof. A DNA profile from AHT is £30, KC Reg is £15 plus Change of Ownership is £15 and the cheapest A4 pedigree is about £10, so upto £40 already for the KC - I'd sooner pay the £30 or so extra and be sure of the parentage.

Since July 2001,the AKC have required that any dog siring more 3 litters in a year or 7 or more litters in a lifetime has to be DNA Profiled for his progeny to be Registered and the dog is classed as a Frequently Used Sire. There is no limit by the AKC on how many times the dog can be used, just that his progeny are traceable because he is DNA Profiled. If this requirement had been applied to Springers and Cockers in the UK from a similar date, the current allegations could be shown to be true or false. Of course this will not stop small scale cheating but it is a major tool in preventing large scale cheating.

[Naj]

Doh! been a bit slow on this one but it suddenly dawned on me that this can work both ways and if these individuals are happy to pass a sprocker off as a cocker they will have no qualms in doing the same with springers, which may explain why I'm often bemused by the frenetic and fussy hunting style of some winning springers which is totally alien to how I remember springers. Put a springer over a cocker and you're going to have pups that will pass as cockers but others that won't because they throw to the springer side. So there's nothing stopping them passing these off as springers if they make the grade.

It's a generalisation but 30 years ago springers hunted in relatively wide, sweeping casts and cockers had a finicky hunting pattern which was much choppier. Some modern springers are much fussier hunters and are pirouetting all over the place in an untypical manner so could it be a cocker influence because it's more like a hyper fast cocker style of hunting than traditional springer?

The other day I saw some video clips of two young springers hunting for tennis balls. They were twirling about like demented dervishes in a style which I found untypical of the breed and, as an aside, it crossed my mind that if we're breeding springers with that amount of quick fire animation in their hunting gait then it's no wonder that we're seeing more knee and shoulder problems in the breed. It ain't natural.

I was thinking it might just be me and my rose tinted glasses but a few weeks back I met up with an old shooting friend and lover of springers who first cut his teeth in the company of the likes of Tom Laird and his Criffel dogs - Straightforward hunting dogs for those not familiar. He'd lost track of the trials scene but had a nice shooting bitch which he decided to gave a litter out of and took to a highly recommended FTCh Stud. He was appalled to see how small the dog was and it was so hyper and animated that he genuinely thought it had a mental disorder. He made his excuses and left. So perhaps it's not just me.

I just toss those thoughts on the table. If people are willing to run sprockers as cockers then there's no earthly reason why they wouldn't also run dogs from the same litter as springers if they threw to that side.

Naj

[westcountry]

Good point naj.

[Sgurr]

Tossing another couple of thoughts onto the table - as Springers and Cockers originated from the same ancestors, then the genotype of the two breeds should be quite similar even though the phenotypes can be different. But as I understand it, the breeds suffer from different forms of progressive retinal atrophy, Springers with PRA Cord 1 and Cockers with prcd PRA and these mutations are carried on different genes. Thus I think we can surmise that any Springer with a DNA test for PRA Cord 1 is a Springer and any Cocker with a DNA test for prcd PRA is a Cocker? Anyone with a genetics background please comment as I could be completely wrong.

FN and AMS occur in both breeds so not helpful in trying to distinguish Springers from Cockers but a Sprocker could be DNA tested for them.

[Judy]

Would the dogs have to be affected or carriers though? A clear would mean nothing, as I understand it.
Interesting that AMS has only relatively recently appeared in Cockers...
Sprocker parents should probably be health tested for diseases that appear in both breeds.

[trekmoor]

Naj made some interesting points in his last post. I have been noticing this trend for "modern" springers to do "twirlies" all over the place for several years now....... I have even remarked on it on this forum a few times. Like Naj, I go quite a long way back with springers and though I never trialed them my mates did. Their dogs never did twirlies and did not have a whirling dervish style of hunting. Their hunting style was usually fast but not frenzied .........not "itty-bitty," an almost "self-controlled" hunting style by the dogs ?

Personally, I do not think this means a few cockers have been slipped into the springers recent gene pool. I think spaniel judges began to give awards to dogs with a frenzied hunting style and dogs with awards tend to be the dogs that get bred from. Over time that sort of breeding by us will tend to bring out what is already in the dogs genes.......it is possible to breed for behaviour patterns as well as for physical characteristics.

I think we are getting what the breeders bred for but they didn't want such large doses of the behaviours.
It only needs one or two "top sires" with "whirling dervish" behavioural patterns to pass/spread the behaviour right through a breed.

I am a fan of the cocker style of hunting so if springers work a bit like that I don't really mind. Where I really detest the whirling, jerky behaviour is during retrieves. My cockers don't retrieve in that manner so I don't see why a springer should !

Wullie

[t jack]

I see someone's tested and posted results on FB of ftch mallowdale gun x ftch mallowdale maggy and come back as level one cocker.

[trekmoor]

Sorry .....what does "level one cocker" mean ? How much cocker is that ?

Wullie

[James]

As close to 100% as can be according to the test as no other dogs in level 2 or 3 and so on i believe.

[Naj]

So was Mallowdale a suspect line?