what breed of dog ?

[Rough_mut]

Get some FTCH dogs into the show ring and show them how's done! Judges had bad press this year after the German shepherd, it might work!

So, one FT dog in amongst 6 or 7 `show' dogs. They all go a round the ring. The working dog, using the correct muscles, no rolling fat, is going to be the odd one out in movement. Do you think a judge, who only ever see's the movement of `show dogs' is going to know which dog has the correct movement?
The KC recently made it a requirement for Show judges to attend working events to give them more experience of `fit for function'. What they didn't do is make the dogs attending do a circuit and line away and back to put movement of these dogs into a context that those show judges could understand. Its easy to criticize the show judges for putting up dogs that are based on a breed standard personal interpretation ( and personal preference ). But if the working side are not going to be proactive in their education, then the blame is on both sides.

Might be one this year but two next next year!

And I do critise any judge who put forward the GSD this year, no way was that even a healthy gsd never mind an ideal standard.

I appreciate showing is different to working, however that line has gotten two far apart, and I would argue working dogs have not deviated that far, besides the usual preference which helps you decide which sire to use or which litter to buy from.

Show on the other hand is responsible for decades worth of interference, many of which has resulted in dogs with clear deformations which effects the dogs quality of life.

I understand showing brought some dogs out of the point of extinction however a dog winning in some of the states you see now is a damn right shame, never mentioning e amount of people searching for pups from litters like this.

No gundog person would actively seek a dog with a fault like this, would someone who's lively hood revolves around showing?

Rm

[pontbeck]

If a dog moves well 95% of the time they are constructed well and fit for purpose.

What utter nonsense, if, in you opinion as a show judge, a labrador moves as you say "we'll 95 % of the time", does that take into consideration that the legs have been bred to be much shorter and the muzzles bred shorter so as they can't jump like a working bred lab and can't retrieve birds properly due to the shortened muzzle, this constitutes, "fit for purpose"??? Really???? Christ on a bike no wonder show dogs are in the mess they are in!!! Don't even start with the Clumber, hip dysplasia, entropium, so it can't get out to a runner as it's hips won't get it there and it can't see the handler for directions that it'd need as it won't be able to mark the bird down to the entropium but as long as a "show" judge says it moves well 95% of the time it must be fit for purpose!!!! My God.

Why can't you get away from gun dogs and look at dogs overall. I may have not explained myself well, what I should have said is " If a dog moves well it is usually constructed well, 95% of the time.
Show gun dogs are a mess but I don't judge gun dogs I judge Border Terriers and I would argue with anyone that the great majority of those that are shown are fit for purpose and a good number worked.
I take exception to your ignorant subjective comments, you don't know me personally but I feel you did you may change your bigoted opinion.

[Springfield Pointers]

Apart from the conformation of the dogs which are sometimes questionable, I think that the big issue, for me anyway, is that show bred bird dogs mostly have no ability to smell. Let alone natural hunting ability. It's been bred out. Take a pup from show breeding and try to get somewhere with it in a hunting context and I think you'll see where show breeding focus is severely lacking.

There is zero responsibility to preserve working genetics, let alone understand them.

[Naj]

The problem is pure and simply the competition element based on a highly subjective 'best' dog approach that is deeply flawed, plus the money involved for the few who are highly successful and therefore highly influential. And we're seeing similar issues in field trials. If there was a simple non competitive, objective, conformation test it would add real benefits to both working and show strains. The current first past the post mentality is more about people than dogs and doesn't serve the breeds at all well.

Naj

[Judy]

Apart from the conformation of the dogs which are sometimes questionable, I think that the big issue, for me anyway, is that show bred bird dogs mostly have no ability to smell. Let alone natural hunting ability. It's been bred out. Take a pup from show breeding and try to get somewhere with it in a hunting context and I think you'll see where show breeding focus is severely lacking.

There is zero responsibility to preserve working genetics, let alone understand them.

The problem is pure and simply the competition element based on a highly subjective 'best' dog approach that is deeply flawed, plus the money involved for the few who are highly successful and therefore highly influential. And we're seeing similar issues in field trials. If there was a simple non competitive, objective, conformation test it would add real benefits to both working and show strains. The current first past the post mentality is more about people than dogs and doesn't serve the breeds at all well.

Naj

Sensible comments, guys although, SP, I prefer my working dogs to not smell too much.
Its a pity that so few breeders have any understanding of the whole dog or, if they do, their focus is on one aspect only which can't be good for the breed.

[Springfield Pointers]

Touché, ma'am.

[crackerd]

Touché, ma'am.

Had to read that twice, SP - first thought you'd said "Beauceron, ma'am" for "what breed of dog."

'Cause you know it's the got the double dewclaws on its hind legs that conformation judges have to check out.

(I always relish this kind of "whole dog" discourse, from everybody chiming in, pontbeck very much included.)

MG

[munstyman]

My point RM was more about the human nature of judges than actual numbers.
A few years back I was ring side for my own breed, ( We are not separated into show and working...yet ). In an Open class there was six dogs, two of which I knew were working/Trial dogs, four were not, or at least not worked in the full meaning of the word as I understand it When the dogs moved around the ring, something caught my eye, and it took a while for me to realise what is was. But it became apparent, even though the dogs were from different lines the two working dogs moved differently than the four show dogs. As I watched you could see how different muscle groups were acting on the `frame' creating a slightly different gait, but the gait was definitely 4 to 2 within that group. I learnt a lot that day, but I feel many show judges never get that opportunity . The other thing that has me worried, is often I read the phrase `well muscled' in breed critique write ups, as if its the exception rather than the rule. You never read `lack of muscle or muscle tone' and yet these are suppose to be judged now with fit for purpose. If you tie that in to my observations of how muscle usage/ tone effects gait, is it little wonder why `good conformation and movement' in the show ring is moving away from fit for purpose.

[Springfield Pointers]

Had to read that twice, SP - first thought you'd said "Beauceron, ma'am" for "what breed of dog."

'Cause you know it's the got the double dewclaws on its hind legs that conformation judges have to check out.

(I always relish this kind of "whole dog" discourse, from everybody chiming in, pontbeck very much included.)

MG

What's this Crackerd?

No colours?

No mast?

[Judy]

You're right, Munstyman, dogs that mince around the ring are not fit for purpose. Conversely I see a lot of approving comments about well muscled forequarters in working dogs whereas I was led to believe that dogs should have well muscled rear quarters, where the propulsion comes from, muscular forequarters show an incorrect conformation - the dog is dragging itself about rather than pushing from behind. Of course I might have the wrong end of the stick / dog?