The current thread on recommendation of good gundog training books and dvds got me thinking about the authors. If one reads and watches enough you'll soon come to the conclusion all the techniques, tools and principles are basically the same with only minor tweaks and emphasis.
So, because of this general commonality of what training resources will offer us and to the degree in which we succeed with our dogs is the point of my question. What do the successful gundog writers and I would also include the other dog gurus who never write a thing but demonstrate their wondrous ability at trials or as professional trainers helping on a personal level all have in common ? It must be more then technique and principle, if not, we would, as intelligent people be able to duplicate their results. However, that is not the case.
What are the intangibles that work for these successful few ? My personal thought is personality and temperament. Are they all consistent and rigid or loose and flexible ? Do they all demonstrate short tempers and intolerance for imperfection ? Has anyone upon meeting good trainers or at the very least, fortunate enough, to be able to observe their handling approach have their impressions enlightened or mindsets altered ? And if so, what was your take on the bond or attention to this particular handler and how it was created and maintained ?
Successful trainers' commonalities ?
Re: Successful trainers' commonalities ?
The best can read and be read by the dog, they can then put the technique and principles in the best place for a successful outcome more often 
Re: Successful trainers' commonalities ?
Timing... the ability to see the dog going wrong before it happens and therefore being able to prevent it from happening. And they all train their dogs. Not just doing exercises from a book, but making sure the dog knows and understands what is expected of it.
ATB
WGD
WGD
Re: Successful trainers' commonalities ?
The real good dog men who consistently come out with good dogs ....as well as having the the full package, being real good dog men, facilities, experience......have the TIME....You speak to anyone of them, they could have all of the above but as an A Panel judge said to me a few week ago, you need to be training morning noon and night to win an open these days.
Alot of lads do this full time or are self employed etc so can go training in the week etc.....and i feel it really makes a difference when you have a kennel full of dogs which need shooting over on a regular basis.
Alot of lads do this full time or are self employed etc so can go training in the week etc.....and i feel it really makes a difference when you have a kennel full of dogs which need shooting over on a regular basis.
Luck is defined when opportunity meets ability.
Re: Successful trainers' commonalities ?
I agree, training a dog is a skill that most people can learn with a bit of basic understanding and application but it makes it infinately easier if you have the right facilities easily to hand. Most people don't have sufficient access to game readily available as and when they need it and that can be a major set back.
Naj
Naj
Re: Successful trainers' commonalities ?
Ability to read the dog, to "know what its thinking". The experience to know what to expect from any dog in any given situation, I think this is partly to do with training enough to be in tune with the dog.
Also how many of the "Top" trainers only train dogs they know they can get along with and know that the dog is good enough to win? Is someone who can buy a dog and turn it into a great shooting companion without ever needing to chop and change dogs to get something they can work with any worse a trainer than the aforesaid "Top" trainer?
Also how many of the "Top" trainers only train dogs they know they can get along with and know that the dog is good enough to win? Is someone who can buy a dog and turn it into a great shooting companion without ever needing to chop and change dogs to get something they can work with any worse a trainer than the aforesaid "Top" trainer?
In life, it is important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.
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trekmoor
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Re: Successful trainers' commonalities ?
I think really good trainers are more "born" than "made." I think they are born with an inbuilt ability to anticipate from their previous knowledge of a dog combined with their experiences of what a dog is likely to do in any situation that is encountered. They see the possibility of a situation becoming a problem before the dog has arrived at "the situation" and began to misbehave or began to get into trouble.
They "see" things like run-ins or chases or perhaps fear before those things actually happen and can then in an instant , think of how to avert or avoid that problem.
"Situations" can be something like a rabbit or very often they can just be the lie of the land and it's cover.
It is possible for an alert sort of handler to make a pre-emptive strike if he has seen the situation inside his head before the dog has even reached it.
Examples of this could be the handler sees a nice pork pie lying on the ground while out for a walk and tells the dog to "leave it" just before the dog detects it. This can help avoid yells of "LEAVE IT !" and threatening gestures. The dog is kept a bit happier and keeps it's willingness to happily work with the handler.
Another example, this time about the lie of the land, could be when a dog is sent for a blind retrieve across a gulley or something similar. Unless very well trained most dogs do not cross gulleys then keep going up the far side. Dogs tend to run up or down the gulleys out of sight of their handlers.
This can be avoided .....sometimes.....if the handler stops/sits his dog on the whistle a couple of yards before it reaches the gulley. The handler then waits until he has fully regained his dogs attention and then very firmly and very visibly , gives the dog a "Back!" command. That is often enough to get the dog down, across and back up the far side of a gulley .......and back into the handlers view.
In a test, yes, you probably would lose a mark or two for the extra commands ........but probably not as many marks as you would lose if you had let the dog down into the gulley and then been forced to try to handle your unseen dog as it hunts happily up and down the base of the gulley.
That is anticipation of what is likely to happen sorted out by the handler before it actually does happen. That simple "trick" has won me more than a few tests and it works on shooting days too.
Many of the really good handlers I have met were not exactly Mensa candidates. What they had was the ability to think "simply".......just like a dog does.
Wullie
They "see" things like run-ins or chases or perhaps fear before those things actually happen and can then in an instant , think of how to avert or avoid that problem.
"Situations" can be something like a rabbit or very often they can just be the lie of the land and it's cover.
It is possible for an alert sort of handler to make a pre-emptive strike if he has seen the situation inside his head before the dog has even reached it.
Examples of this could be the handler sees a nice pork pie lying on the ground while out for a walk and tells the dog to "leave it" just before the dog detects it. This can help avoid yells of "LEAVE IT !" and threatening gestures. The dog is kept a bit happier and keeps it's willingness to happily work with the handler.
Another example, this time about the lie of the land, could be when a dog is sent for a blind retrieve across a gulley or something similar. Unless very well trained most dogs do not cross gulleys then keep going up the far side. Dogs tend to run up or down the gulleys out of sight of their handlers.
This can be avoided .....sometimes.....if the handler stops/sits his dog on the whistle a couple of yards before it reaches the gulley. The handler then waits until he has fully regained his dogs attention and then very firmly and very visibly , gives the dog a "Back!" command. That is often enough to get the dog down, across and back up the far side of a gulley .......and back into the handlers view.
In a test, yes, you probably would lose a mark or two for the extra commands ........but probably not as many marks as you would lose if you had let the dog down into the gulley and then been forced to try to handle your unseen dog as it hunts happily up and down the base of the gulley.
That is anticipation of what is likely to happen sorted out by the handler before it actually does happen. That simple "trick" has won me more than a few tests and it works on shooting days too.
Many of the really good handlers I have met were not exactly Mensa candidates. What they had was the ability to think "simply".......just like a dog does.
Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
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Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
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Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
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Re: Successful trainers' commonalities ?
Isn't this "made" from experience? Rather than born with the handler, although I do think some people are better at understanding their dogs than others, I know people who have had dogs for far long than me and had more dogs too but still don't seem able to 'think like a dog' and ask me why I've done this or that when, to me it was quite obvious. A good example being the "pork pie situation'' saying "leave" before the dogs gets immersed in the flavour of rotting pork is so much more likely to get a positive response.trekmoor wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:43 pm I think really good trainers are more "born" than "made." I think they are born with an inbuilt ability to anticipate from their previous knowledge of a dog combined with their experiences of what a dog is likely to do in any situation that is encountered. They see the possibility of a situation becoming a problem before the dog has arrived at "the situation" and began to misbehave or began to get into trouble.
They "see" things like run-ins or chases or perhaps fear before those things actually happen and can then in an instant , think of how to avert or avoid that problem.
Wullie
Once they get to the stage of training where they bring you the pie for your delectation you know you're onto a winner.In life, it is important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.
Re: Successful trainers' commonalities ?
All great responses with a common theme of 'ability to read a dog'. So, nobody thinks that trainer temperament, personality quirks or super intelligence has any play in having dog after dog become if not a ftch but at least a terrific hunting one ? Is there such a thing as being endowed with above average charisma and leadership that every dog easily becomes a team player when handled by those that have 'IT' so to speak ? Or perhaps as some of you have mentioned the charisma could come from just having the ability of thinking simple, dog like ?
Re: Successful trainers' commonalities ?
This is an interesting question. Perhaps this is not just the ability to read and understand dogs, but an ability to read the situations on working days. An understanding of wind direction scent and how weather conditions effect scent. The ability to stay calm when things aren't going to plan. I have far more experience with horses but some people have a knack of being able to handle the most factious of horses which boils down to trust. I guess perhaps the interesting stasitic might be those that can train top quality dogs/bitches without leaving a mass of those chucked out because they aren't good enough.