Creating a Shadow

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ZizouJR
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Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:06 pm

Creating a Shadow

Post by ZizouJR »

https://www.amazon.com/Creating-Shadow- ... 9163781697
https://www.youtube.com/user/gyllerboda ... ter/videos
http://www.gyllerbodahundcenter.com/en/

Take a look at the links, read the text I have written and if you want to, tell me what you think :) It would be really interesting to hear what thoughts you have.

The reason why I'm posting this is because a lot of people posts all sorts of problems they got with their dogs on this forum. For example: the dog do not care about his owner, the dog is hunting on his own without any contact, the dog won't come on recall, won't retrieve, the dog shows aggression towards other dogs. The list goes on..

I would guess most of these problems are related to the owner-dog relationship.
The dog got no leader. I don't talk about a pure dominance based leadership like Cesar Millan, but a "natural" leadership where we(the owners) takes the same role as the bitch has to her puppies. She(the bitch) is the most important thing in their life, and by taking ower her role we can become the most important thing in the life of our dogs.The result is a dog that follows us, want's to please us and all this without any sorts of training, corrections, treats or rewards.

This is not some new and modern dog philosophy, but a result of having had hundreds of hundreds of dogs, over 600 puppies(of high quality) and lived with a big pack for over 30 years(I'm not the founder of the philosophy). As a bonus, Bengt Rödseth and Gunilla Wedeen(the founders of the philosophy) are also well known gundog trainers in Sweden. Gunilla is also a well known retriever trainer outside of Sweden.

I know them in person, have seen their pack and how they live with their dogs. They don't use any commands, treats or force, but still the dogs follow them out on walks without getting told to. They do it because they want to follow them. If a rabbit, a deer or any sort of game shows up, the dogs will of course be interested, but since they(the leaders) are not responding in any ways, the pack will continue it's walk.
The dogs know that they will be taken care of in any situation, so they don't need to take any sorts of responsibility. This means that behavior problems are non existing.

The dogs live in a kennel by night, but spend many hours inside the house every day. Even with so many dogs inside the house you would think there would be some sort of noise or trouble, but there's not.

So far, everything written is my own words. Since I'm not from England, but Norway, the text is probably not very well written, but I hope it's possible to understand it all :)

Last, I would like to post a copy from Bengt and Gunilla's own homepage, and it's all written by them:

The Shadow Philosophy

Why the name SHADOW – Here’s the explanation.

Some species live in packs simply because it helps increase their survivability. The more eyes that can keep an eye out for danger the less chance that a predator can sneak up on a herd such as with horses. In other cases, there’s a better chance to take down big game when you are hunting as a pack. Having more members of the pack also helps increase the survival rate of the young.

Lions, wolves, and wild dogs are among the animals that use this strategy.

If the pack is to function properly individuals cannot have their own agenda, they must pay attention to the alphas signals. A young animal does not have the experience of where to find food, doesn’t know what’s dangerous, and what pray is suitable to attack. This is why someone has to lead and take initiative for different activities. The alpha couple, or if you will alpha parents, will lead and the others will follow. It may happen that when the pack is traveling that another member is walking first but if the alpha male / female changes direction the pack will join THEM.

Are they doing it on command, by force, for treats, or what’s the reason?

NO, their instincts are taking over. The mother has through her way of raising the pups created trust and fellowship that binds the pack together. The “little ones” follow the alpha couple like a SHADOW!

Because the alpha couple is the crucial core for the packs survival, the way they face different situations is of great importance to how the members will gain experience and knowledge. If the alpha couple signals fear or danger this is conveyed to the other pack members. If the mother of the puppies gets scared, the puppies react to this and will learn what’s dangerous.

In other words, if me as a dog owner acts insecure and stressed out in the waiting room at the veterinarian your dog will read into that and respond the same way. If I’m calm and balanced my SHADOW will act the same way.

Creating a SHADOW, is how my behavior can guide my dog to a safe and balanced life. I get a dog that follows my lead no matter the situation. This is without commands, treats, or force. They follow by choice.

By focusing on myself and what I convey to my dog through my emotions and energy, I can help my dog to feel safe no matter what happens. If I always convey strength and security the dog can put their lives in my hands and just enjoy life.

There is another reason we picked the name Shadow, and that’s one of our dogs really behaves like a shadow. He is balanced in all situations including with aggressive dogs. He is also a decorated hunting dog.

What do you think his name is?

Oh yes, you are right SHADOW!
Springfield Pointers
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Re: Creating a Shadow

Post by Springfield Pointers »

Why would you want a bird dog to follow you? What rubbish. I want my dogs to do nothing of the sort!
newf
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Re: Creating a Shadow

Post by newf »

Sounds like you have found utopia. :o What a load of Crap. :roll: However, you will get followers because gullibility and novice go together. :(
ZizouJR
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Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:06 pm

Re: Creating a Shadow

Post by ZizouJR »

With follow, I don't mean follow like that's what the dog does all the time, but gundog trainers teach their dog to heel, right?

Just take a look at these 2 clips. The first one shows a Golden that have only done a few retrieves in his life.
The second one is showing some training before the swedish championship in 2013.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gHWpi-cI3g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnBz-_s5C9M&t=312s

A natural leadership is not something special really. Take a look at the bond the top gundog trainers in the UK got with their dogs. It's a good example of dogs that wants nothing else than pleasing their owner/trainer.
It's just that most regular people don't have this relationship with their dogs. They get their cute little pup and thinks that everything is going to be perfect. Then the dog grows up to become a troublesome dog without any intention of listening to his owner. This is often not a training issue, but a bond or relationship issue.

And of course you use commands, corrections and praising when training a gundog, they do to, but what I have written about is not the gundog training part, but the daily life part. But, the training goes so much easier when you have a dog that want's nothing else than pleasing you.
ZizouJR
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Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:06 pm

Re: Creating a Shadow

Post by ZizouJR »

Just to make it clear.
I have no interest in posting this other than to show it to other people. Me myself is just a happy young man in the beginning of his spaniel career.
Nothing I love more than spend time with my dogs out in the nature working with them.
I also eager after more knowledge and there's no gundog book I wouldn't read.
Lately I have spent alot of time on Chris Uptons youtube channel, and he seems like a guy with a lot of knowledge, not only about gundog training, but also about "dog psychology". So even if I have found much good stuff by going deeper into this philosophy I'm talking about, both I and everyone else should find their own path. And some things we like, other things we throw away because we find it wasn't for us. And that's the way it should be.
munstyman
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Re: Creating a Shadow

Post by munstyman »

Ok I see what your saying, but I don't think it forms any form of philosophy, as its just a twist on basic pack theory, however all the videos posted and some of the others I watched while I was there show me very little and even less to support your thinking, all were just basic `before' and `after' videos. How the dogs behaviour is altered is what we are most concerned with here on a `training forum', if you want to be taken seriously you need to show that process. :think: I mean you can get an aggressive dog to a state of flat out on the floor using a tazer :shock: but it doesn't mean its the right way to go about it ;)
A natural leadership is not something special really.
Well that just let all the air out of what ego I have left :lol: :lol: I think those that have it tend not to notice, but those that don't seek them out ( or maybe a book or philosophy ) :think:

My other main concern with using this form of `pack theory' is you are relying on the dogs to alter the behaviour of other dogs, and you are by default devolving your role as its trainer. It does very little in educating the owner on what created the problem in the first place, that being why the bonding process failed in the first place between pup and owner so that the dog behaves now in a manner that is not wanted :think:
Personally I like my dogs to be free to develop their own individual character and then shape it for the greater good of our ( hunting ) relationship. Any form of `pack training ' stifles that individuality till much later in life, fine for `Do as I say ' handlers but not for those who like that self expression and extra buzz when all that genetic code is set free :dance:
Thanks for sharing though :)
ZizouJR
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Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:06 pm

Re: Creating a Shadow

Post by ZizouJR »

No problem, and thanks for your reply :)

Just gotta add a little thing in the end. The two persons I talk about, Bengt and Gunilla, knows a few of the top spaniel trainers in the UK and from time to time they travel over to visit them.
One thing they often keep telling all the swedish "pet owners" they help is: "Act a little more like the hunting people on the English countryside, to them that dog is only a dog and not a human baby". So, if you're one of the English countryside people, munstyman, you probably got it all figured out, and you can keep what you have left of your ego :D
Saul
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Re: Creating a Shadow

Post by Saul »

ZizouJR wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2017 7:49 pm Just take a look at these 2 clips. The first one shows a Golden that have only done a few retrieves in his life.
The second one is showing some training before the swedish championship in 2013.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gHWpi-cI3g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnBz-_s5C9M&t=312s
That dog on the first video has not only done a few retreieves befor, it is highly trained and has done this many many times.

I liked the spaniels though, but would be more interested to see how he got there i.e. the training :-)
Naj
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Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:47 am

Re: Creating a Shadow

Post by Naj »

I agree with MM, it infers a lot but says little of practical use. And thinking on pack theory has moved on. Dogs have little to do with lions, wolves or wild dogs and what we once thought of the workings of their pack systems has been found to be wrong. The nearest we can find to domestic dogs are feral and village dogs and they've had quite a bit of study now which debunks former thinking on alpha leaders and dominance. Taking advantage of a young pups vulnerability and desire to maintain contact with the handler in order to develop a strong bond and working relationship with the handler is now a common practice around the world and quite a few of us on here already work with this to create a dog that naturally becomes a 'follower' of the handlers actions rather than a bog off dog or one that is constantly required to be under strict command in order to contain it. But always interested in hearing more if you want to elaborate and provide a bit more detail. :)

Naj
ZizouJR
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Re: Creating a Shadow

Post by ZizouJR »

Again, thank's for all the replies from everyone. And again, I'm just a normal young man with the interest of spaniel training and hunting, and not some crazy person trying to spread the word of Jesus or something :p
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