delivery issues

[Naj]

In fairness to the dog in the video, although the trainer said this wasn't a force fetch procedure, teaching the hold in this fashion isn't without fallout in the relationship. I believe the video started on day three and the trainer mentioned that the first day wasn't pretty. This is because most dogs resent something being forced in their mouths and robustly resist any attempt to force a dummy in their mouth until they realise there is no option. This then produces appeasement/displacement behaviours like the dog not wanting to look the handler in the eye, so you can't really say that is a symptom of the dog's general demeanour for it is a product of the handler's training methods and their treatment if the dog. The same with use of place boards. It's popular to use aversives techniques to condition the dog that the board is the only safe place to be. This will result in a completely different mindset to a dog that has been conditioned into choosing the place board in preference to anywhere else because it is such a great place to be.

Naj

[ips]

To date since my "suspension" even though for the record when i tried to log in it said i have been "banned" i have refrained from posting however from time to time I have looked in to see what's going on. I now feel compelled to post.

That video I find totally appalling, that is obviously one very unhappy dog. The poor thing is tied to the wall and sat on a four foot high table just so fella me lad doesn't even have to bend down. It makes my blood boil. If I can train a dog to keep hold of a dummy purely because it wants to not because it is "forced to" then anyone can.
If any none gundog person see's that video and any similarly appalling "force fetch" videos then they will assume we are all training in that method, which we are not.
Rant over but I am still livid after watching that vid.

[Saul]

Sorry to hear about your problem with suspenders. Nice to have you back

[ips]

[Nickheref]

I think this may, in some cases, be a bit of a possessiveness issue on the part of the dog that needs to be sorted out.

I don't disagree that possessive dogs can move their head out of the way because they want to keep the dummy but this dog was being trained in this way because it didn't want to keep the dummy and actually wanted to get rid of it. I mentioned two dogs that were not keen to hold onto their dummies, it was a long time ago and I tried everything I could think of (or read on force retrieving) to encourage them to hold on and as Naj says it wasn't pretty and ultimately unsuccessful and convinced me that a dog who doesn't want to work with you isn't worth your time, they were the only two out of about 40 but I struggled on and had one issue after another with them and neither of them was much use. If I am honest today I might do slightly better with the second one who was a bit better than the first but frankly I hope never to have a dog like either of them again. That doesn't mean that everything goes right first time of asking but I am looking for the dog to show signs that it wants to do something even if it isn't quite sure about it, a big difference to a flat refusal. I don't mind a young dog who decides to do laps of the field as long as it wants to keep the dummy. I have just come in from giving my dogs a last run and my younster tried to retrieve half a dozen seed trays, one after another, that my wife had moved out of the greenhouse to harden off before planting. Exasperating as she chucked soil and seedlings everywhere and I knew I would get it in the neck from "her in charge" but absolutely fine in every other way.
I actually quite like the more possessive type as I believe that once they have picked a bird nothing, no fence, river, hedge, bank or any other distraction is going to stop the dog bringing it to me whereas I would not really trust a dog who wasn't too bothered about carrying something to do the same and I have seen a few when out shooting who decide to forget the bird when confronted by a deep ditch that they struggle to get out of if they find it easier to do so not carrying it.

Actually thinking about it Naj I think you are right about the lack of eye contact on the delivery but the question remains why was it all necessary in the first place.

So both Flash Gordon and IPS are alive

[Judy]

So is Elvis.

The dog I had most trouble with had the opposite problem, she wouldn't hand over a dummy and saw no point in working with me whatsoever. I, reluctantly, took some advice I was given and just took her picking up, what a transformation! Totally different animal and one of the best picking up dogs I'll ever have. It was a hair raising ride and somebody once said he hadn't a clue how I kept in touch with her (neither had I!) but she was an entirely different animal, never did get a decent dummy retrieve!

[Nickheref]

So is Elvis.

The dog I had most trouble with had the opposite problem, she wouldn't hand over a dummy and saw no point in working with me whatsoever. I, reluctantly, took some advice I was given and just took her picking up, what a transformation! Totally different animal and one of the best picking up dogs I'll ever have. It was a hair raising ride and somebody once said he hadn't a clue how I kept in touch with her (neither had I!) but she was an entirely different animal, never did get a decent dummy retrieve!

I know what you mean, perhaps I should say a dog who shows no ability or desire to do anything isn't worth the time. Dogs who have ability but no desire to please can eventually come onside to a point when they realise you have a common purpose or perhaps you are useful to them!

It's all right I have just replanted all the seedlings and I think they will survive

[ips]

Obviously I have only the experience of one dog but I had no problem training her to keep hold of anything I told her to hold. In fact steadiness was the only thing I really had a struggle with , oh and loose lead training which is by the way much improved now. Anyway my point is that if a total no nothing muddle along bloke can do it without aversive (and in my opinion that vid depicts an aversive method) then anyone can.
Over a year ago my good friend mr naj mentioned "you have to engage with the dog" it took me many many months to understand what he meant but once I did things started to happen. There is no need for the type of intimidation depicted in that video and furthermore if I had to do such things to make a dog retrieve a bird I would ruddy well retrieve it myself before I put an animal through such a thing.
Shame on him and shame on anyone else who thinks that is acceptable.

[trekmoor]

In a way I mourn the passing of some old fashioned ideas , like culling unsuitable dogs. It was culling that produced the gundogs we have today and not things like F.F. or like clicker training. If a dog couldn't or wouldn't "do the job" it found itself "filling a hole !"

I last encountered this attitude to dogs about 40 years ago at a retriever trial when a lab was eliminated for hard mouth in a Novice trial. Some of the competitors tried to console the dogs owner by saying the dog maybe wouldn't be hard mouthed in it's next trial but it's owner replied , "You will never see this dog again." ..... We never did !

Fifty years back I did train F.F. to one very tough border collie male I wanted to work in obedience competitions. It was very hard on the dog and very hard on me but it did work very well. He was the only complete non retriever I ever owned (I got him from the cat and dog home when he was about 8 -10 months old) and he had no interest whatsoever in retrieving or even picking up any kind of article or object.

He became a very, very keen retriever which I find rather worrying. If that dog had been a gundog and had won trials due to being F.F.'d, his non- retrieving nature could have passed on to any litters he sired. Gundogs should be "naturals" at aspects of their work like hunting and retrieving ..... although I do not really think of good deliveries as being an entirely natural thing for most dogs to do. I find most pups require some work done to achieve a good delivery.

Wullie

[munstyman]

To date since my "suspension" even though for the record when i tried to log in it said i have been "banned" i have refrained from posting however from time to time I have looked in to see what's going on. I now feel compelled to post.

That video I find totally appalling, that is obviously one very unhappy dog. The poor thing is tied to the wall and sat on a four foot high table just so fella me lad doesn't even have to bend down. It makes my blood boil. If I can train a dog to keep hold of a dummy purely because it wants to not because it is "forced to" then anyone can.
If any none gundog person see's that video and any similarly appalling "force fetch" videos then they will assume we are all training in that method, which we are not.
Rant over but I am still livid after watching that vid.

Welcome back ips I hadn't looked at that video till I saw your rant, expecting something shocking by your description I gave it a look....I didn't see `one very un happy dog' or `a poor thing' as for the high table, did you listen to what the guy said `about comfort zone' and `focus'. I also did not see any intimidation
I checked back through the thread to see if I had the right video and read Naj's post preceding yours and have to wonder if that slanted your interpretation of what was `actually' shown ?
Most dogs, as Naj pointed out, will fight the first time you handle their mouths, I'm sure most vets see more than their fair share. Part of getting a pup use to being handled involves checking their mouths, and I would rather do it in a way as part of the training environment than do it in the stressful environment of an emergency. The technique used on the video is pretty standard...I used it the other day when my pup picked up a ball of clingfilm ( just the right size to cause a blockage ) and would not drop it and had to put my fingers of my other hand right to the back of her throat before she swallowed it. I doubt I would have had the control or the trust of the dog had I not given her the experience of the technique in general handling puppy training.
Being a strong advocate of Natural Ability I do follow what Nickheref is saying, and if I was a pro-trainer I would not want to waste time training an ability that should already be there. However, I'm still in the position that dogs come to me for life so whilst I do my homework to reduce the chance of not getting a dog with a good natural ability from its breeding. With the `all rounder' aspect my dogs will be expected to do, it is fairly inevitable that they will have one aspect of their work that may require a boost with more interactive training on my part. ( Or for that matter too much drive in one aspect that might require some toning down with control )
Writing a dog off because it does not show an ability right `out of the box' can be a wasted opportunity to expand your ability as a trainer( If you have the luxury of the time ), and often those dogs that require the most effort, more time or a different approach, will be the ones that give you those red letter days that reward all that effort to dwell on in those comfy chair years