delivery issues

[trekmoor]

Well ..... ! Following IPS 's rant and then Munstymans post I thought I had better actually watch the video ! IPS , that was definitely not a force fetch. It was "hold" training and it was done on a little table with a lead attached. If you think that is worth a rant go and take a look at a top-notch dog grooming parlour ! They have the dogs up on tables and they have a sort of adjustable stainless steel purpose made "gallows" to attach the chain to the dog from.

The dog in the video did not look fearful to me .....just sort of bored and resigned !

While I have never done this using a table and lead I have done much the same thing many times with many different dogs . I'd have used a table if I could carry one with me into the woods and fields ..... I usually train on the move though so although a table would be useful I'm far too lazy to carry one !

Like Munstyman I make sure I can take things from dogs ....it can save their lives. My lab pup very recently got hold of a small plastic box full of large fishing hooks. She did not want to give up her new toy so I did as you saw on the video and made her give me that flimsy box before it burst open with a probably very painful and nasty result.

With some pups I play a game of "take and give" where the pup, on command takes a toy or a dummy from me then holds it for a few seconds before giving it back to me on command. Most gundog pups enjoy this game as no force at all is employed and I do things this way if I can. Some pups just do not seem to "get" this game however and with them I teach the hold using the same mouth opening method shown on the film.....it is often the case that pups will do the basic retrieve very well but just drop the dummy once they get near you.

Please do not think that since your dog did not need this , none of them do.
If you think the trainer on the film is cruel and despicable then so am I and so, I suspect, are several others on this forum.

Wullie

[ips]

Hi munstyman
No Mr naj's post did not effect my view.
I understand what you say about handling the dog and I too have regularly had to prize unwanted stuff from her grasp but that is Imo for the safety and benefit of the dog which again Imo is completely different to the technique shown in order to 'force train" something. Sorry but I do not see anything but an unhappy dog. I think that the fact that the handler feels the need to restrain whilst "training" the dog is proof that the dog does not want to do it. Maybe all the dog needed to view retrieving and holding on to an object to be a fun thing was to be able to "play" with a ball.
As ever I respect the opinion of my betters but my personal opinion on this matter stands.
Atb

[ips]

Well ..... ! Following IPS 's rant and then Munstymans post I thought I had better actually watch the video ! IPS , that was definitely not a force fetch. It was "hold" training and it was done on a little table with a lead attached. If you think that is worth a rant go and take a look at a top-notch dog grooming parlour ! They have the dogs up on tables and they have a sort of adjustable stainless steel purpose made "gallows" to attach the chain to the dog from.

The dog in the video did not look fearful to me .....just sort of bored and resigned !

While I have never done this using a table and lead I have done much the same thing many times with many different dogs . I'd have used a table if I could carry one with me into the woods and fields ..... I usually train on the move though so although a table would be useful I'm far too lazy to carry one !

Like Munstyman I make sure I can take things from dogs ....it can save their lives. My lab pup very recently got hold of a small plastic box full of large fishing hooks. She did not want to give up her new toy so I did as you saw on the video and made her give me that flimsy box before it burst open with a probably very painful and nasty result.

With some pups I play a game of "take and give" where the pup, on command takes a toy or a dummy from me then holds it for a few seconds before giving it back to me on command. Most gundog pups enjoy this game as no force at all is employed and I do things this way if I can. Some pups just do not seem to "get" this game however and with them I teach the hold using the same mouth opening method shown on the film.....it is often the case that pups will do the basic retrieve very well but just drop the dummy once they get near you.

Please do not think that since your dog did not need this , none of them do.
If you think the trainer on the film is cruel and despicable then so am I and so, I suspect, are several others on this forum.

Wullie

Hi Wullie
Well in that case I am glad I don't need to take her to a groomers'

With the greatest respect just because people do it and just because that's the way some or even many trainers have done it historically does not make it right or acceptable. Imo of course.

I will get me coat.

[ips]

Edit

I stand by all I say however I would like to just clarify that I did not mean for my post to come across as specific to the gentleman in the vid (which I know it did and I apologise for that and retract any statement or wording to that effect) my "rant" was about the technique in general and any similar (or worse) techniques which employ methods that force the dog rather than train the dog.
Again this is only my personal opinion which i appreciate does not mean much to the majority.

Edit
I have asked the mod to remove certain words from my initial post which on reflection I now consider a little harsh. I hold my hands up to having phrased my initial post in a rather poor manner however I stand by my sentiment.
Regards

[trekmoor]

No need for your coat, you are entitled to your own opinions. That reminds me of when I was a teenager and my mother and father had a flaming argument over something. My dad pulled on his coat and opened the door to leave (probably to go to the pub to drown his sorrows in drink !) before he really lost his temper .....my parents both had very ready tempers !

Then, just as he was going out the door, he popped his head back around and said ," Maybe I'm wrong sometimes but I'm right this time !" Something about this struck both my mother and I as being very funny so we both burst out laughing. My dad, for a couple of seconds, looked as if our laughter was going to be the final straw but then he too saw the funny side of this and he too burst out laughing ! Both of my parents had quick tempers but they also had a very good or even outrageous sense of humour.....it helped keep our family together.

There is two sides to every argument.

Wullie

[ips]

[munstyman]

Hi munstyman
No Mr naj's post did not effect my view.
I understand what you say about handling the dog and I too have regularly had to prize unwanted stuff from her grasp but that is Imo for the safety and benefit of the dog which again Imo is completely different to the technique shown in order to 'force train" something. Sorry but I do not see anything but an unhappy dog. I think that the fact that the handler feels the need to restrain whilst "training" the dog is proof that the dog does not want to do it. Maybe all the dog needed to view retrieving and holding on to an object to be a fun thing was to be able to "play" with a ball.
As ever I respect the opinion of my betters but my personal opinion on this matter stands.
Atb

Is it a `need' to restrain or an aid to focus? Is the dog fighting the leash? Is it a case of the dog not wanting to do it or teaching the dog a specific action without distraction? I'm with trekmoor, all I'm seeing is a resigned dog certainly no distress, in fact I thought the dog was much further along in its training and was just going through the motions for the purpose of the video .
You may be right, for some dogs making it a game is all that is required.....but be aware, some hunter holics will tell you where to stuff that ball though

[Judy]

I routinely have to open my dogs' mouths to force feed worm tablets, we don't have a breakdown in our relationship, except when the packet of wormers comes out. And if that beggar accidentally bites me again I will be buying a grooming table in self defence.

I was going to say one swallow doth not a summer make but thought that might be misconstrued...

[David]

Not even worth getting exited about...

[trekmoor]

If you mean the video , I agree.

Wullie