A flush is always saluted by a shot, mainly to test for gunshyness, but not at the birds. Yes, the likes of Peter O'Driscoll will work their dogs for guns but it's harder than getting shooting for Spaniel's and retrievers, and how many of those are actually shot over on a regular basis other than working on driven shoots.
I found all that dancing about around the dog on point amusing, too, and then some handlers almost glowered over the dog on the flush to maintain steadiness. would never have been allowed in a spaniel or retriever trial and highlighted to me that they'd never shot a bird over the dog themselves. And I agree that this habit of grooming on the point is totally counter productive. I hate faffing about around a pointing dog. I don't know why we seem to think we know better than a dog or need to encourage it to do something that is a perfectly natural process for a pointing breed. Leave it for the birds to teach the dog and they'll quickly sort it all out for themselves.
Naj, I was once out with a spaniel trainer and I showed him how steady my pointing dogs were on game and how I'd achieved that mainly by letting the birds teach the dog how to "behave." He wanted to know if this could be done with a spaniel and I said I doubted it unless the spaniel would at least flash point. Do you think this is correct ?
I know I was finding it impossible to train Charlie not to chase the rabbits he found until I noticed that he'd often flash point. I developed a "proper" point with him and he soon became steady to rabbits. Then I relaxed on the pointing side of things but kept (most !) of the steadiness to flush. Was I just very lucky or could this "technique" work for most folk who just want a shooting spaniel rather than a trialing spaniel ?
Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
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Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
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trekmoor wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:17 pm
Sorry, I've never seen it but I watched the link you gave to it. There were some good looking dogs there that were only beaten by the quality of some of the wummin !
Wullie
It is a European thing - my brother is always in stitches at the difference in the award ceremonies at the Tour De France and the Tour de Yorkshire
trekmoor wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:18 am
Naj, I was once out with a spaniel trainer and I showed him how steady my pointing dogs were on game and how I'd achieved that mainly by letting the birds teach the dog how to "behave." He wanted to know if this could be done with a spaniel and I said I doubted it unless the spaniel would at least flash point. Do you think this is correct ?
I know I was finding it impossible to train Charlie not to chase the rabbits he found until I noticed that he'd often flash point. I developed a "proper" point with him and he soon became steady to rabbits. Then I relaxed on the pointing side of things but kept (most !) of the steadiness to flush. Was I just very lucky or could this "technique" work for most folk who just want a shooting spaniel rather than a trialing spaniel ?
Wullie
I think the pointing factor is pretty crucial. And, of course, pointing in Spaniel's was seen as a requirement once upon a time. If I ever had another spaniel pup I would definitely get it on game from the get go and play things by ear. It's much easier to get the relationship right around game with a niave pup and before it is physically able.
Hello, trying to answer each qyestion slowly (going through each post and editingaccording to what I will read.
I am Italian and I am the only Italian (so far) that runs both in UK trial and in Italian FCI trials... Hence... well.. I feel like I am exactly what you need.
First of all we have different kind of trials:
Wild birds
with shooting
Mountain
Snipe
Woodcook
Quails (aptitude) **NO CCs awarded
Quails (classica)
Partridge
Grande Cerca
I ran in Wild birds (pheasant, partridge, red legged usuall)
Trials with shooting and retrieve
Snipe and partridge.... so far
plus grouse trials in the UK. I own, trained and handle an ES.
Different trials have different rules and you can read them googling "FCI trials rules british pointing dogs". (Rules for continental pointing dogs are slighlty different).
Campo felice is a Classica a quaglie: style, quartering and training (dogs must explore in straight diagonals) are the most important things in Classiche a quaglie. It is sort of taken for granted that the dog finds the planted birds. Neverthless, many dogs and many birds run (and are planted) on the same ground which can make things trickier.
It's a bit like dressage in horses and it is considered a good occasion to showcase the dogs. Campofelice, furthermore, is like a big party and most of the dogs running there are already champions.
Handlers flushing the quail? I do not like it but.... planted quails are sometimes harder to flush than a block of concrete... (sometimes you just step in them...) and it's sometimes impossible for the dogs to flush them (my dog roads nicely on other stuff but she gets sticky on quail... quail itself is sticky!)
I am not really into classiche... I find them boring, but, as said above, you can really see how the dog moves, approaches the bird, points and so... and hundreds of people can watch. You test these traits (aka "style") not smartness, endurance and bird sense... you have other trials for these.
Me again... not all trials are run on planted birds, sometimes birds have been released close to the trial dates though.
Our trials are not easier than British trials, not at all, I describe some of the differences here http://dogsandcountry.it/2017/03/17/fin ... -it-vs-uk/
What Naj writes about ranging farm independence, wealthy clients, sadly is true... But not caused by these trials. Grande Cerca (Grande Quete) is the main culprit...
people simply run because they are excited.... I get teased as I do not run... Friends awarded me the "snail trophy" lol.... I handle British style, which is more respectfu towards judges and other handlers... so my run gets often affected by faster, bolder and louder handlers...
Naj you should come and see some or locate some videos on you tube
http://www.cacciaedintorni.it/web/speci ... etto-2017/ you can see me around minute 4... notice the different handling
I am also present at the end of the video (the videomaker chased me until I accepted to answer him... Being the only woman between male "pro" handlers.
As explained in the Dogs and Country article above, judges close one/two eyes on obedience sometimes. This is a selvaggina naturale (pheasant and partridge here). Dogs can range less than Grande Cerca & pure partridge trials. This is supposed to be close to a real shooting day... but it is not, in my opinion.
Yes, the likes of Peter O'Driscoll will work their dogs for guns but it's harder than getting shooting for Spaniel's and retrievers, and how many of those are actually shot over on a regular basis other than working on driven shoots. 
would never have been allowed in a spaniel or retriever trial and highlighted to me that they'd never shot a bird over the dog themselves. And I agree that this habit of grooming on the point is totally counter productive. I hate faffing about around a pointing dog. I don't know why we seem to think we know better than a dog or need to encourage it to do something that is a perfectly natural process for a pointing breed. Leave it for the birds to teach the dog and they'll quickly sort it all out for themselves. 
