Stop whistle problems

[Brian82]

I am having a bit of trouble with my 1 year old 3/4 gwp 1/4 Labrador. I have got a lot of the basics in place. When out with the dummy I can get her to stop and sit at the whistle at a distance, throw a dummy and then send her for it. 9 out of 10 times she does this fine. The problem Is if she gets a strong scent she tends to ignore it or for example today when out training she put a pheasant up and bombed straight after it with me blowing the stop whistle and shouting for her to sit. Can anyone help me with some tips? Thanks

[ips]

I will be following this with interest as I have a similar problem on occasions.

[Saul]

Lets assume mostly HPR instincts and strong hunting ...

Only hunt on a long line until you've got consistent stop on the big temptation of game flush. Huge pain in the proverbial, but the more flush / chase action she has the harder it will be to pull back. Dont believe the "let them chase birds, they will grow out of it and learn they cant catch them" line. That might work if you have an endless bag of pigeons to throw i.e. you have control of repetition and you have the birds, but I very much doubt it will work at 100 yrds when at speed and "on it". If you are working in UK you just don't have the space, land, roads, safety comes in. At this stage every single chase is a reinforcement of how much fun that is.

You have to proof the stop to chase with increasing distraction/excitement. If you can build (or have) a strong ball drive/ dummy drive in a game free environment you can (again starting on a long line) blow stop on the outrun / chase. You then have complete control, if the dog ignores you it gets pulled up short. Initial stops before the dog gets up to full speed, you're trying to reinforce compliance and give an opportunity to learn. If the dog knows well what a stop is, it must believe its not optional depending on situation as it sees it.

Tempt with everything, thrown ball dummy when walking to heel (and on long line / lead). Maybe try bolting rabbit on a spring a few times, don't think it tempts fools many dogs, so probably not worth repeating much.

Then to real game which is the real temptation. Anything in which you can control the chase and get the dog to comply with the stop under temptation of scent and movement of game, rabbit pen work, engineered point / flush using bird launchers, working on a ling line through a squirrely wood. As you are asking the question, you will very probably have to see a trainer with access to birds and launchers and rabbit pen, because most people don't have those facilities themselves.

I would say having got to this point nothing else really matters until you have control of the chase, so you will be restricting all off lead action to game free or very controlled game situations for probably 6 or so months. The alternative is the dog cant be used as a gundog, you might have great obedience in a game free environment, you might have all the lefts rights, backs on dummies, blinds, water and all the bells and whistles, but as they say, you've either got full control under the ultimate temptation ... or not. Cant use it for beating if it chases, cant use it for picking up and send it into woods for a seen retrieve in case it bumps a live one and takes off and clears the next drive....

I sound like a misery, not trying to be... its a phase that any dog with even half a hunt in it will go through, so on the plus side it goes with some drive, but for me it is "the" difficult one. And you may guess that I messed this up with my first GSP, and so far not messed it up with my second

Other more experienced opinions will no doubt be along shortly

[Brian82]

Thanks for taking the time for that reply Saul, very informative.

[Saul]

Might not be right though

[newf]

Sounds alright to me Saul.

[trekmoor]

Lets assume mostly HPR instincts and strong hunting ...

Only hunt on a long line until you've got consistent stop on the big temptation of game flush. Huge pain in the proverbial, but the more flush / chase action she has the harder it will be to pull back. Dont believe the "let them chase birds, they will grow out of it and learn they cant catch them" line. That might work if you have an endless bag of pigeons to throw i.e. you have control of repetition and you have the birds, but I very much doubt it will work at 100 yrds when at speed and "on it". If you are working in UK you just don't have the space, land, roads, safety comes in. At this stage every single chase is a reinforcement of how much fun that is.

That was a good post Saul but maybe it was based mainly on your own experiences ? This part in particular I know is not accurate, not always anyway........ ""Dont believe the "let them chase birds, they will grow out of it and learn they cant catch them"
That is exactly what I did with 3 brittanies, 4 GSP's and a vizsla and it worked with all of them.

I have a saying....."Don't train dogs to stop until they have taught themselves to go" Doing this tends to produce fast, uninhibited dogs with a lot of range. What made those pups eventually stop chasing was a combination of things. There was the fact that they never caught a flying bird which made them more likely to chase them to ever decreasing distances . At the same time I was "letting 'em rip" out in the fields and woods I was, however, also training them a good recall and a stop to whistle in much less exciting places such as public parks on short grass, football pitches and even in tar covered car parks. Dogs with not much to attract them and distract them tend to look for interest to other sources .....such as you !

With a good recall and a stop/sit in place at fairly close ranges , maybe up to 30 yards, I'd then take the pup out to fields and practice those same things there in game free areas. Then I'd watch carefully as a pup found and flushed game, what I was looking for was an indication that when it chased that bird ,the pup was just about ready to give up the chase of it's own volition. This is usually indicated by a reduction in the pups running speed as it chases. That's when I would blow recall ....not sit....it's still too early for long distance sits.

I'd praise the pup profusely for recalling then hunt it again for another bird . Over a period of time, sometimes just a week, sometimes a few months, depending on the individual pup, I'd find that the chases grew shorter in distance and a good bit less determined. That's when I'd introduce the sit which eventually becomes the sit to flush. For my pups there was no swift transition from chasing to stopping . No "today you are allowed to chase, tomorrow you won't be allowed to chase." The pups were partially training themselves by experience that chasing flying birds was a waste of time and energy but that I'd praise them if they returned quickly after short chases and praise the hell out of them if they stopped themselves.

I've won a few trials with Brittanies and with GSP's Saul and no dog of mine ever chased game in a trial ....not if that dog had "trained itself" not to chase.

I'd like to thank you for your post though, it was an honest reply based on your own experiences.

The O.P.s dog is no longer a puppy. It has maybe past the time when it would take the "train yourself" route. I'd very firmly train it that Stop means Stop ! I'd do that any way I could.

Wullie








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[trekmoor]

Out of curiousity I tried dredging up an old pic or two from Photobucket..... I'd given up on that lot about a year ago , still don't know if this will work , it's a pic of my Brittany at 5- 6 months on a shared point with the vizla I trained, pointing on a pheasant hiding behind the log.


That vizsla was about a year old before she finally gave up on chasing birds . She once chased a pheasant she'd flushed for nearly half a mile out over a beach and then into a distant wood. She ended up completely steady though.
The Brittany pup was very different. She was far "hotter" than the vizsla as a hunter but was made steady in no time at all.

Wullie

[Naj]

I have to agree with my learned friend, Wullie, on this topic. Educating dogs not to chase by allowing them to chase so that they self learn that chasing doesn't work and so volunteer not to is a tried and tested method used by many trainers around the world. It follows either the bump and chase routine or the released pigeon routine and takes a surprisingly short length of time for a dog to decide that chasing just isn't worth the effort &/or the find and point is of much more value to them. I do agree that it is highly effective when learnt at the puppy/young dog stage but when a dog has reached a year old and can keep on terms with a bird and has a confirmed chase it may require considerably more effort. It really all depends on the dog's commitment to the chase. If the dog is chasing on the flush but volunteering to break away after 60 yards or so and returns to the flush area then following Wullie's advice of recalling when it's already returning would still work. But if the dog doesnt break off the chase &/or breaks off when it loses sight but hunts on looking for more stuff rather than returning to you then that would be beyond repair and you'd have to think in terms of developing the sit or recall under the distraction of game. But you're going to need birds however you approach it.

Whether the dog points or not would also have a bearing on this. If it points then you have the chance of getting control of the dog by use of it dragging a light training line. If it doesn't show any inclination to point then it needs to be treat as a flushing breed like a spaniel and kept within gunshot. Depends what you're going to use it for.

Naj

[Saul]

Aye to the above additions, which to an extent come down to .. it all depends on a lot of factors, your dog, your training skill and experience, the ground you are training over, proximity to roads, density of "finds", and finally there's probably a few different ways to skin a cat

I had clocked that the OP had a 1 year old, and Mr Wullies final line

It has maybe past the time when it would take the "train yourself" route. I'd very firmly train it that Stop means Stop ! I'd do that any way I could.

and Mr Naj

when a dog has reached a year old and can keep on terms with a bird and has a confirmed chase it may require considerably more effort.

.

..and yes agree with you Wullie that dogs can be "self trained" not to chase, but ideally probably need big safe spaces, nice if you can see your dog (maybe not Surrey woodland then), a young dog and experience, because they dont all self stop, not for a couple of hours anyway! My first was very much a 2 Thermos bitch.

..and also agree if you are after a rangy hunting machine, let em "go" before you put the stop on them and the dog will not get inhibited by any corrections when the need comes.

... and depends a lot on the dogs general connection and biddability ...

...it all depends ... and as they say your mileage may differ

Good luck Brian, have fun, its a great game!