Very quick question on loose leash

[CockerCanuck]

Based on my experience I would say it is a matter of balance. If all a pup had to do most days was walk on a leash I would be concerned that too much discipline and rigor around a proper loose lead heel could diminish his spirit and drive. However, If you are in a position where the same dog could get a good run in cover for a few minutes a couple of times each day I don't think an expectation to heel nicely between these sessions could be anything other than beneficial for the pup. They need to learn there is "down" time and there is "go" time.

[Springfield Pointers]

If teaching a dog not to pull on a lead is going to ruin it's "drive". I might suggest that there is a larger issue with the dogs breeding. Teaching heelwork will have no impact on a dogs desire to hunt.

Not letting it hunt will have impact on how it hunts.

[ips]

Based on my experience I would say it is a matter of balance. If all a pup had to do most days was walk on a leash I would be concerned that too much discipline and rigor around a proper loose lead heel could diminish his spirit and drive. However, If you are in a position where the same dog could get a good run in cover for a few minutes a couple of times each day I don't think an expectation to heel nicely between these sessions could be anything other than beneficial for the pup. They need to learn there is "down" time and there is "go" time.

Totally agree with last sentiment, unfortunately with hindsight

[Aimeetess]

If teaching a dog not to pull on a lead is going to ruin it's "drive". I might suggest that there is a larger issue with the dogs breeding. Teaching heelwork will have no impact on a dogs desire to hunt.

Not letting it hunt will have impact on how it hunts.

Completely agree. Saw a post on Facebook where a novice type of chap had his lovely 8 month Springer heeling lovely off lead with a video in a gun dog group, this dog also hunted, retrieved (in other vids) and looked like a lovely type.
Someone commented to say your ruin your pups drive to hunt if you get them to heel, and that any dog that pulls on a lead will hunt better than one that heels... Apparently he also was at the spaniel championships this year so was clearly right.

I have taught my young cocker heel from 12 weeks if walking along a field or a road to a field, never wanted him to learn to pull and don't regret it. Now hes older its a pleasure walking him on lead or getting him to heel off lead if I don't have a lead. He gets to hunt and retrieve so has tons of drive.

[Judy]

Another method, rather than jerking at the dog, which can be ineffectual and cause stress, is to teach the pup what "heel" means off lead. Don't move but teach the pup to stand close beside you where you would expect it to be when walking at heel, once its happily coming in 'to heel' then take a small step and work from there.

[munstyman]

I'm beginning to understand why our cousins over the pond get so confused with the general reaction to e-collars as soon as they are mentioned over here . It seems we are perfectly happy to hurt a dog in its most vulnerable part to get it to focus, ( It has nothing to do with training the heel ) but think a quick electrical nip is the work of the devil.
Please think before you place a slip lead up at the top of the neck, this is the weakest point of the neck, and an `upward' jerk has no muscle resistance to protect the throat tissues. Is it no wonder the dog immediately feels vulnerable and compliant.
When a dog prey shakes, does it shake in an up and down nodding action or in a side to side action? Now think what you are doing by jerking upward If you want to use the jerk method, newf on the other thread correctly explains the sideward jerk to correct a pulling dog.
How many of you who seem perfectly ok with this would use a prong collar....in public? That soft slip lead is just as dangerous it just doesn't have the bad boy image In reality the dog is in control of the prong collar if used correctly whilst the dog has no control over the poor training it is receiving from the plonker on the other end of the slip lead.

[newf]

I find it almost comical about the problems many have in teaching loose leash walking or even heel. To me, it is far easier than teaching a good delivery to a reluctant or even playful pup. In the former, it can start off positively and then proofed with firmness with no fallout of enthusiasm while in the latter, it has to be fun all the way or the pup won't play. And if the pup won't play then you have a problem.

A few of things must be present in order for things to be so difficult : 1) reluctance or uncomfortableness in giving firm direction, especially in proofing ; 2) convinced that once a pup understands the behavior it will automatically comply with the behavior ( not going to happen, unfortunately) ; 3) trainer lacks physical ability in either dispensing treats or handling a leash ( timing in otherwords ).

Being deficient in one or more of the points can cause a pup to be confused, frustrated or nagged and in extreme approaches fearful. When I talk in terms of firmness, I'm not talking about dragging a dog around, I'm talking about direction and reward.

[Springfield Pointers]

I'm beginning to understand why our cousins over the pond get so confused with the general reaction to e-collars as soon as they are mentioned over here . It seems we are perfectly happy to hurt a dog in its most vulnerable part to get it to focus, ( It has nothing to do with training the heel ) but think a quick electrical nip is the work of the devil.
Please think before you place a slip lead up at the top of the neck, this is the weakest point of the neck, and an `upward' jerk has no muscle resistance to protect the throat tissues. Is it no wonder the dog immediately feels vulnerable and compliant.
When a dog prey shakes, does it shake in an up and down nodding action or in a side to side action? Now think what you are doing by jerking upward If you want to use the jerk method, newf on the other thread correctly explains the sideward jerk to correct a pulling dog.
How many of you who seem perfectly ok with this would use a prong collar....in public? That soft slip lead is just as dangerous it just doesn't have the bad boy image In reality the dog is in control of the prong collar if used correctly whilst the dog has no control over the poor training it is receiving from the plonker on the other end of the slip lead.

Agree totally.

[CockerCanuck]

The method I used in the past was when the dog pulled ahead I would sharply change direction and pull him sideways into heel position and then proceed repeating over and over until the dog learned it could avoid all this unpleasantness by just staying in the heel position.

I tried a variation on this with my latest Chessie pup which I found even gentler, and with him quicker. Right from the start he learned a very quick nice solid sit. When I walked him on the leash if he pulled ahead I just piped the sit whistle, while he sat, I stepped up to position beside him and moved forward again with the "heel" command. Obviously what he wanted to do was move forward but quickly leaned that movement got interrupted with a sit every time he pulled ahead and learned to stay in the heel position with almost no "correction". He has a very nice loose lead heel now even with distractions and is starting to get the same off lead.

Of course for this to work the dog need to have a very solid SIT first.

[KMYN]

I find it almost comical about the problems many have in teaching loose leash walking or even heel. To me, it is far easier than teaching a good delivery to a reluctant or even playful pup. In the former, it can start off positively and then proofed with firmness with no fallout of enthusiasm while in the latter, it has to be fun all the way or the pup won't play. And if the pup won't play then you have a problem.

A few of things must be present in order for things to be so difficult : 1) reluctance or uncomfortableness in giving firm direction, especially in proofing ; 2) convinced that once a pup understands the behavior it will automatically comply with the behavior ( not going to happen, unfortunately) ; 3) trainer lacks physical ability in either dispensing treats or handling a leash ( timing in otherwords ).

Being deficient in one or more of the points can cause a pup to be confused, frustrated or nagged and in extreme approaches fearful. When I talk in terms of firmness, I'm not talking about dragging a dog around, I'm talking about direction and reward.

Unfortunately none of these apply to me and I still can't seem to get noticeable improvement.

Yesterday afternoon I tried an exercise where you look out in front and turn 90 deg right whenever the dog starts to get ahead which I will try again, for longer possibly.

Other than that it's the usual story on the daily 5-6 mins that he is on-lead, short sharp corrections, one or two bigger corrections and nothing seems to affect this puppy. I feel like I can barely praise because he's either in front of me with a loose leash moving forward (which surely I can't praise), or in a light pull.

One thing I've thought is should I hold the lead much shorter until he gets it? Maybe that will give more opportunities for praise?

The problem is I don't want to keep doing it with no improvement and just condition him to the corrections. That seems almost worse than letting him pull slightly and then trying to sort it later with the trainer.

P.S. I know that this is my fault not the puppy (for example my Mrs went through a phase of walking him in the mornings and although she knows the correction I'm sure she wouldn't have been doing it enough, although it's worth noting that I started trying to correct him pretty much straight away after he was able to go out and it didn't seem to do anything then either)