Very quick question on loose leash

[Stacia]

Look again ips.

[ips]

Look again ips.

Ah, I think I must have ffw that bit. I have to say though that even I didn't find it "that" harsh. I think that if it was guaranteed to stop a dog pulling I would be happy with that degree of aversive as a short sharp shock rather than a constant need to nag the dog. In fact i have probably done harsher lead pops during my quest to stop pulling, didnt ruddy well work for me though. Dog does look confused but it's bound to be given the circumstances.

[Naj]

What makes you think the dog does not know what is wanted, he isn't pulling ? The behavior that gets him in trouble is the hope he displays for his owner to allow an escape from focus and compliance of this new trainer. His owner to which he is attempting to focus on, well, he has her number, to which she admits several times. In short order, the dog will be heeling just fine and with attention to which praise will pick him up again.

One could pass out hundreds of treats to encourage the dog to follow along at your left side but it would take forever to become reliable because it only mimics the behavior. Distraction proofing would always be a challenge because there would be a missing part to the communication, namely, how to stop the lack of focus when other things suddenly appear and have more appeal to the dog. Chris Burns is not only teaching the behavior but reinforcing simultaneously with both adversives and praise. This builds a social relationship which will exceed the heeling behavior and carry over benficially into all other gundog training.

Not wishing to nitpick but technically, Newf, you punish with aversives, you can’t reinforce with them because they’re used to stop unwanted behaviours. Any reinforcement occurs when the unwanted behaviour ends and the punishment is taken away. But I agree that their use does condition an emotional response in the dog simply through associations made between the dog, trainer and the punishment, which is really why trainers use them, to establish aversive control over the dog through the threat of punishment. That’s why some trainers prefer to train without them.

Naj

[CockerCanuck]

I am certainly not against positive training methods. In fact every dog I have trained over almost 50 years of this game has been trained more positively than the last. However, I can't get my mind around going all the way there.

In my simple way of looking at it. If I give a dog praise and reward for doing the right thing and a correction for doing the wrong I am providing him with twice as much communication and direction than if I was 100% positive. Assuming the dog wants to please. and 90% of them do, am I not giving him more information and more to work with by offering both sides of the story?

This is good! Reward.

This is bad! Correction.

[Springfield Pointers]

Like all things it's about balance. Too much either way can make life difficult.
A good balance between:
Love and discipline.
Kindness and frankness.
I have tried to apply that to all things, and its simplicity, I find refreshing.
I'm a simple creature - I can't see the need for over complicating simple issues.

[trekmoor]

I am certainly not against positive training methods. In fact every dog I have trained over almost 50 years of this game has been trained more positively than the last. However, I can't get my mind around going all the way there.

In my simple way of looking at it. If I give a dog praise and reward for doing the right thing and a correction for doing the wrong I am providing him with twice as much communication and direction than if I was 100% positive. Assuming the dog wants to please. and 90% of them do, am I not giving him more information and more to work with by offering both sides of the story?

This is good! Reward.

This is bad! Correction.

That puts into a nutshell my own experience and my own way of training gundogs.

Wullie

[Naj]

The trouble with correction, for me at least, is that you have to give an awful lot of it throughout the training process, because any trained behaviour is only as good as the history of punishment and reinforcement that went to make it, and it’s very easy to ramp up the level of correction, especially when things aren’t going as planned or tempers fray. But I use punishment just as anyone else does, I just don’t intentionally use traditional physical corrections. Doesn’t that make me a balanced trainer too.

Naj

[ips]

What type of punishment naj ?

Punishment such as not getting a retrieve, that sort of thing ?

[CockerCanuck]

The trouble with correction, for me at least, is that you have to give an awful lot of it throughout the training process, because any trained behaviour is only as good as the history of punishment and reinforcement that went to make it, and it’s very easy to ramp up the level of correction, especially when things aren’t going as planned or tempers fray. But I use punishment just as anyone else does, I just don’t intentionally use traditional physical corrections. Doesn’t that make me a balanced trainer too.

Naj

I appreciate what you are saying Naj. I guess where we disagree is on your assumption that corrections always ramp up and they result in, or exasperate frayed tempers. My experience is the opposite. Over time and with experience I have learned just how little force is really needed for an impactful correction. I am sure if I could see a video of myself training as a young man my corrections would be somewhat more frequent and very significantly more forceful than they are today. I am much more patient than I use to be with a dog that does not understand and I see the correction as a communication tool to help us both get to the positive praise that makes us both happy.

It is interesting though, at least in my memory all those dogs I trained with much rougher methods all ended up happy companions and good workers. I don't think my style, at that time, in any way ruined my relationship with the dog. However, I have learned I can get the same, or even, better results with significantly ramped down corrections and the process is more pleasant for me, the dog and probably anyone watching.

[Springfield Pointers]

What type of punishment naj ?

Punishment such as not getting a retrieve, that sort of thing ?

Why would you punish a dog for not bringing something in?
I can't think of one instance where the wrong message would easily be sent.