A blondes attempt at training a Cocker

[munstyman]

I don’t know how to get him delivering to hand consistently without a treat reward? He’ll sit and hold but if you keep doing it without a treat he decides he wont hold or even pick the dummy. Which me and the trainer saw today and he didn’t even know what to say/recommend.

This is a complete guess, but I would expect to see this when the delivery is being made to formal to soon. Replacing a treat with praise needs you to be far more playful and not formal, and you must do it in phases. I also see it when a release command is introduced in an `ordered' tone without an upbeat praise straight after, some even forget about the praise altogether while they are putting the dummy in their pocket or bag
The building of the retrieve to be self rewarding for the dog doesn't happen overnight, you have to use the difficulty and challenge of the retrieve which builds the self reward ( achievement ) over time. You still need to balance the reward you give the dog with the reward the achievement gives the dog. The way I explain this is to `appreciate' the dogs achievement but reward the simple retrieves done well. Again avoiding to much formality to early, SIT...HOLD...HOLD...DEAD ( dog moves ) SIT....SIT....handler fumbles around with dummy....good dog Sound familiar?
Dog goes from a high of look what I've done, found the dummy and brought it back to you, am I not great at playing this game, lets do it again to oh your not pleased and your wanting boring boring blah blah blah, pfft don't think much of this game. I know next time she sends me out I'll hunt down a nice fresh sheep turd and eat it yum yum

[Judy]

I've found my young Cockers seem unable to multitask - they will either deliver to hand or come in, sit and drop the dummy. Tbh I forwent the sit in favour of getting the dummy in my hand, the sit present looks pretty but I never use it in the shooting field so why train for it? The only thing its good for is slowing the dog from chucking a bird at you ad b'ing off straight away, so, take the dummy then ask for a sit at heel, more useful in a dog destined for picking up. And balance the praise between dull and boring and winding up the pup too much so that it bounces around with glee although the latter is preferable to the former.

[Aimeetess]

I don’t know how to get him delivering to hand consistently without a treat reward? He’ll sit and hold but if you keep doing it without a treat he decides he wont hold or even pick the dummy. Which me and the trainer saw today and he didn’t even know what to say/recommend.

This is a complete guess, but I would expect to see this when the delivery is being made to formal to soon. Replacing a treat with praise needs you to be far more playful and not formal, and you must do it in phases. I also see it when a release command is introduced in an `ordered' tone without an upbeat praise straight after, some even forget about the praise altogether while they are putting the dummy in their pocket or bag
The building of the retrieve to be self rewarding for the dog doesn't happen overnight, you have to use the difficulty and challenge of the retrieve which builds the self reward ( achievement ) over time. You still need to balance the reward you give the dog with the reward the achievement gives the dog. The way I explain this is to `appreciate' the dogs achievement but reward the simple retrieves done well. Again avoiding to much formality to early, SIT...HOLD...HOLD...DEAD ( dog moves ) SIT....SIT....handler fumbles around with dummy....good dog Sound familiar?
Dog goes from a high of look what I've done, found the dummy and brought it back to you, am I not great at playing this game, lets do it again to oh your not pleased and your wanting boring boring blah blah blah, pfft don't think much of this game. I know next time she sends me out I'll hunt down a nice fresh sheep turd and eat it yum yum

That made me laugh!
Yes very true.. I think the delivery I do get serious but he has ALWAYS delivered it to hand, the problem with the trainer was he didn't walk backwards, and wanted him to sit/hold it but Harley finds that boring and therefore drops it if you don't praise him quick enough. He will deliver to hand but barely ever will sit/hold as I suppose thats the boring part. Occasionally he does naturally sit/hold which I give him tons of praise as sometimes with a runner they need to keep hold. The trainer on the weekend told me to not praise him until he was sat/holding it and I had taken it off him.. so it mean't I wasn't praising him at all as he kept dropping it (so he soon totally switched off and wouldn't pick anything)

Took him in a open space this morning (without dummies) and as soon as he got to far away 'ah ah' in a stern voice, then I changed direction, he came back closer and I to keep him on his toes I kept changing direction. He stayed within about 10ft of me so it was good and he didn't go any further after that. I then allowed him to go 'play' with the lab for 10 minutes which was a bit of ruff and tumble but they stayed close which was good. This trainer told me to take the dummy out every time he goes out morning/afternoon, but Harley would soon get bored of them so going to stick to dummy work once a day still.

Judy its funny, as I done some cold partridge work last week. Only 2 retrieves but each retrieve he sat and held it, without me even asking, as if he knew it was the real thing so couldn't drop it. Its only dummies he isn't keen on holding for long.. which I can understand why.

The trainers 11 month Cocker he showed me (so I could get a feel for what Harley could/should do) was kenneled, comes out for 10 minutes a day to quarter/train (then back on the lead, back in the truck) and apart from that only out for a wee or poo for a minute or so, which I know is normal for a lot of working dogs. This dog was unbelievable for the age. Quartering, hunting very well only a couple of foot away from him, he would sit and hold a dummy for any length of time until he said dead, obsessed with the chap and didn't take his eyes off him but it doesn't know any difference, and was very much a robot and some things the dog seemed a bit nervous as its never seen/done anything else where as Harley has seen a lot more. I do think that has a difference as a dog who has seen a lot more, he comes up the yard, out around the house, sleeps on my lap etc where this Cocker was out to train and put back so obsessed with the handler.

[Miesque]

The trainers 11 month Cocker he showed me (so I could get a feel for what Harley could/should do) was kenneled, comes out for 10 minutes a day to quarter/train (then back on the lead, back in the truck) and apart from that only out for a wee or poo for a minute or so, which I know is normal for a lot of working dogs. This dog was unbelievable for the age. Quartering, hunting very well only a couple of foot away from him, he would sit and hold a dummy for any length of time until he said dead, obsessed with the chap and didn't take his eyes off him but it doesn't know any difference, and was very much a robot and some things the dog seemed a bit nervous as its never seen/done anything else where as Harley has seen a lot more. I do think that has a difference as a dog who has seen a lot more, he comes up the yard, out around the house, sleeps on my lap etc where this Cocker was out to train and put back so obsessed with the handler.

My ESS pup is like this but isn't kenneled - it's down to the temperament/attitude of the dog a lot of the time

[munstyman]

I think the delivery I do get serious but he has ALWAYS delivered it to hand, the problem with the trainer was he didn't walk backwards, and wanted him to sit/hold it but Harley finds that boring and therefore drops it if you don't praise him quick enough. He will deliver to hand but barely ever will sit/hold as I suppose thats the boring part. Occasionally he does naturally sit/hold which I give him tons of praise as sometimes with a runner they need to keep hold. The trainer on the weekend told me to not praise him until he was sat/holding it and I had taken it off him.. so it mean't I wasn't praising him at all as he kept dropping it (so he soon totally switched off and wouldn't pick anything)

You've trained a walking ( Backwards ) delivery to hand, you have not trained a stationary delivery to hand let alone a sit delivery to hand. From your perspective they are the same, however to the dog they are completely different You HAVE to phase them in by moving the praise/treat further towards what you are after. You can not expect to change the `game' so quickly and expect perfect results. Ultimately what your trainer was saying is that you only have to treat/praise at the end of the delivery when its in your hand or even in your game bag....but you have to get it there first, hence moving it along the learning process, gradually.
The reason the dog drops it, is not necessarily boredom, but a lack of understanding of what your asking. When he drops it is he looking elsewhere or still at you? The former is indicative of boredom the latter he's asking for help....or` where's my bloody treat then?' You can wait and hope that sooner or later the dog will happen upon the right choice on its own, but in order to do that you have to keep the `whole' game interesting so you don't end up going backwards ( and I don't mean walking ) and ruining the run out/the find and the quick return . It is often better to train different aspects in different circumstances ( less distraction ) and then let the dog bring them together on its own

Judy its funny, as I done some cold partridge work last week. Only 2 retrieves but each retrieve he sat and held it, without me even asking, as if he knew it was the real thing so couldn't drop it. Its only dummies he isn't keen on holding for long.. which I can understand why.

Nope, this is just self achievement and the effect of a `new' higher value retrieve. Let me guess, I bet the first time he picked up the partridge you `praised him' ? You added even more value to that retrieve and moved the reward backwards not forwards...do you praise at the same point when using a dummy? I bet you don't, not anymore its old hat....is it no wonder your dog starts to see's it the same way? This ultimately leads to the `dog is on birds so it won't pick dummies' excuse, Where as a `retriever' should pick anything you send it for if its trained to `retrieve'... properly
Don't get me wrong, I'm as emotional as the next man when my dog picks its first bird, first runner, eye wipe etc, but I like to think that my dogs read me well enough to `see' that without me rewarding back down the learning chain...they get it that I see their `achievement' I don't need to add to that with a `whoopee good dog'. What I do need to do is instill that I value the ordinary run of the mill retrieve just as much, so the first one of those I `up' the praise and reward....it prevents the dog making the wrong choice based on my uncontrollable emotional handling

[Aimeetess]

You've trained a walking ( Backwards ) delivery to hand, you have not trained a stationary delivery to hand let alone a sit delivery to hand. From your perspective they are the same, however to the dog they are completely different You HAVE to phase them in by moving the praise/treat further towards what you are after. You can not expect to change the `game' so quickly and expect perfect results. Ultimately what your trainer was saying is that you only have to treat/praise at the end of the delivery when its in your hand or even in your game bag....but you have to get it there first, hence moving it along the learning process, gradually.
The reason the dog drops it, is not necessarily boredom, but a lack of understanding of what your asking. When he drops it is he looking elsewhere or still at you? The former is indicative of boredom the latter he's asking for help....or` where's my bloody treat then?' You can wait and hope that sooner or later the dog will happen upon the right choice on its own, but in order to do that you have to keep the `whole' game interesting so you don't end up going backwards ( and I don't mean walking ) and ruining the run out/the find and the quick return . It is often better to train different aspects in different circumstances ( less distraction ) and then let the dog bring them together on its own

He drops it and looks around, if I ask him to bring it closer (as trainer said to do) he'll just start ignoring the dummy completely.. trainer told me not to treat at all OR even praise until delivery is in my hand and he must sit/hold for that praise.

I used a bit of woodland today and done some quarter work, he done well but only dropped a couple of dummies as he started blanking the dummy. Think its as there is no scent at all in that area of woodland so will move onto another bit we haven't been in yet and see if I can keep him close with more scent. The trainers Cocker would hunt any area, even if there is no scent, as it was desperate too find something (dummy, ball etc) but Harley isn't fussed if its just a dummy/ball scent.

I went into a field and done a couple of LONG distant memory retrieves, once the dummy is placed he won't leave my side until hes sent for it and won't stop looking at me. Like a rocket out, right back, sat, held it for me while I was stroking his head and 'dead' praised lots. Done a blind too which he done great, then made him sit and watch the lab have a couple of retrieves. I've noticed if in a open field he'll sit/hold the dummy until I say dead.. but if hes in a fun woodland area he'll drop it and look around for something more interesting.

[Aimeetess]

Not sure what happened there as typed a massssiiveee reply and its disappeared. Grrr.
I do see what you mean, munstyman and appreciate your comments. Me being novice, its probably mixed messages constantly which are confusing him. I have never had a spaniel and all of our dogs have naturally stayed close but I can see why hes started going ahead. Why stay close when its more fun elsewhere and my own fault being, I’ve never given him a ‘distance’ boundary.

Took him into the biggest field today and straight away he went to bugger off. Usually I’d let him go, then whistle him back but today I went with the intention of keeping him close without the use of the whistle (didn’t even take it so I was feeling brave!) The trainer recommended good things in my lady voice, then changing my tone of voice as soon as hes going too far out and saying ‘AH AH’ in a deep tone, I change direction and he should follow. If he ignores, get after him. He uses these techniques on his young spaniels.

He went too far a couple of times at first (while I was walking all kind of zig zags across the field with a very confused lab!) but the correction recommended was enough to get him back into the safe zone and he stayed in a nice close zone while we zig zagged across the field, constantly watching me.
Took him into a small fenced field and gave him the ‘go play’ command where he ran around playing with our lab, for a bit before I went to work.

At lunch I took him into the woodland by our house, he always hammers around but goes too far so I haven’t been in there for a few weeks, to scared he’ll run off to far and lose me. Straight away, too far. Used the correction which worked, then praised. He started hunting nicely around me, popped a few direction change whistles in which he done great and got him excited keeping his eye on me. Placed a rabbit dummy when he wasn’t looking, picked the scent and bought it back to hand. Tons of praise. Off again, done it a couple of times with the 4 different dummys between ½lb and 1lb. After we had walked 10 minutes of the woodland he started not wanting to hunt around and just staying at my side watching me so called it a day with the quartering/hunting and to get his eagerness back done a long marked retrieve in an open field, once I place the retrieve he can’t leave my side, constantly looking at me waiting for the command. Wicked retrieve and delivery to hand. A chap walking past commented on how well behaved he was

Wondering if he thinks ah ah is a correction on him hunting so thinks he shouldn’t hunt? Trainers young dogs didn’t get bored of hunting the same ground or woodland.

[Miesque]

fter we had walked 10 minutes of the woodland he started not wanting to hunt around and just staying at my side watching me so called it a day with the quartering/hunting

He's not bored, he's getting sticky because he's getting wise to you putting out dummies - it's a tough one to manage, ball lanes pre laid out can help you avoid it being an issue. If you're feeling flush buying David Lisset's DVDs are not a bad starting point to keep you "on track" with the sequence of learning

[Judy]

Why hunt the dog very close if you want him for picking up? If you want a Spaniel for rough shooting / Trialling / beating then it has to hunt close but I'd be pee'd off if mine hunted that close to me when picking up. Whilst I don't let them go out of control as pups they get to roam about fairly freeways I want a "Guid raking dog" when picking up.

[Aimeetess]

Why hunt the dog very close if you want him for picking up? If you want a Spaniel for rough shooting / Trialling / beating then it has to hunt close but I'd be pee'd off if mine hunted that close to me when picking up. Whilst I don't let them go out of control as pups they get to roam about fairly freeways I want a "Guid raking dog" when picking up.

He started hunting FAR to ahead, as in, he'd run off in a straight line, I couldn't see him a field away and even if I recalled him, he'd come back but he'd go again and again so the trainer has been trying to get him to hunt close to me when asked and tp stop him running to far ahead/self hunting so the gundog trainer has said to practice getting him to hunt close to you for a few weeks. A few friends have said why get him hunting close if he'll be a picking up dog but I don't know what to do as the trainer knows that and its what he recommended

fter we had walked 10 minutes of the woodland he started not wanting to hunt around and just staying at my side watching me so called it a day with the quartering/hunting

He's not bored, he's getting sticky because he's getting wise to you putting out dummies - it's a tough one to manage, ball lanes pre laid out can help you avoid it being an issue. If you're feeling flush buying David Lisset's DVDs are not a bad starting point to keep you "on track" with the sequence of learning

Thats it, even if he doesn't see me putting dummies out. He knows I'll have a look, thank you!