A blondes attempt at training a Cocker

[Aimeetess]

It sounds to me that he has already decided that the stop whistle is optional. There have already been occasions which you had tried it and he hasn't stopped. Personally, I wouldn't blow the stop whistle unless you know he will definately stop (ie restrict it to close training when you know he's engaged with you) until he is 100% every time. A useful next step if you have started directional training: Get someone to throw a dummy for you with a good backstop (hedge/fence etc) as a normal marked retrieve. Repeat, then get them to place a dummy in the same place that he's just had 2 successful retrieves. Send him for that. Them get your helper to put a dummy to one side. Send the dog to where he has had three sucessful retrieves. Once he hesitates (as there is no dummy there), sit him with your whistle and redirect him to the side where the dummy is. The gets him trusting that the stop whistle alway preceeds something great and that you are helping him (teamwork).

I have been doing just this, only blowing the stop when hes in a controlled environment which hes great. Thats a great idea, if hes been sent and can't find it he'll look for direction/where to go next so that probably would work nicely.

I’ve seen a few posts on social media on dogs stopping on the whistle on the way to a retrieve. Harley by no way will do this or has, unless I used a long line he simply doesn’t listen to me at all if hes on the way to a retrieve. Picking up I do need to obviously stop him when send out to direct him and sometimes this means changing a retrieve to a different one if its winged/pricked. Is this something to work on now, with a long line? Or wait, as don’t want to ruin his enthusiasm.

Yeah right Your picking up dead birds during a drive ? You don't have a second dog? Think about it, before you let `social media experts' help you ruin your pup. Having said that the `stop' must be obeyed by the dog in all situations. I train the dog to value it above everything else but it takes time and habituation, others use coercion or force, but I don't train it using retrieves and only proof it rarely when training retrieves to avoid doing exactly what you describe in your last sentence.

Yes we do pick dead birds during 2 of the drives on one of the shoots, mainly because of the shape/layout of the land and one drive we get over 60 birds on one drive, so the keepers ask to pick dead birds up as well on that drive. On other drives we do leave dead birds.
How do you train the stop whistle munstyman? Would love a approach to it that works well without him thinking stop means end to the fun. I've stopped him a few times to throw dummies over his head. Then he'll sit/wait until I say out. When I blow the stop, he'll stop but there is a 2/3 second hesitation/delay where he'll stand still looking around before sitting. I don't know how to sharpen it up? If he does ever fails to stop, which hasn't been recently, I run after him, grab him by his scruff and sit him where I blew the stop whistle. I've never recalled him from a stop whistle. Its more when dummies are involved/laid out, or say 'birds' he won't listen to the stop whistle at all yet when on a retrieve. In the end If i could send him for a dummy, stop him. Throw a second dummy (say it was a pricked bird) and send him for that one instead would be ideal as even our 5yr lab struggles with that. Tell me if i'm talking crap!

[munstyman]

Sorry if I came across harsh, but its an irritation when people use that dead bird/ runner argument to trick train the dog, and I consider it as a trick, often used to judge a dogs control rather than of practical need.
To train specifically for it, with a young dog, 9/10 will lead to confusion for the dog and add hesitance to the retrieve or an overall drop in enthusiasm, especially on the run out, as the dog wanders into `anticipation' mode. In an older more experienced dog, that has both the stop and directional training well understood, I've found it will do it anyway ,( on the rare occasions you might put the dog in that situation), so adding it to a young dogs `training' is not necessary and potentially has more negative effects than positive ones.
Personally I see little time difference in letting the dog finish its dead bird retrieve and resending for the runner, than stopping and redirecting at a distance, assuming your dog can take a line and has a nose, and doesn't mess around retrieving the dead bird in the first place
I've said many times how I train my dogs stop/sit. It starts as a game and I let the dog offer it from the outset ( I do not force or touch the dog ever into the sit position) It is always rewarded, in my case with praise, which will vary with the distraction present and the speed of the sit. Fast sits gets more reward, slow sits get less, but still get some. Later fast sits get quick release, slow sits get slow release.
If the sit is ignored because the distraction is too great, that's my fault. I wait till the dog regains attention then give the command again, which is rewarded. I do not scold the dog for initial non compliance ( ignore the bad ) I do not keep on giving the command while the dog is distracted, I do not move onto something else till the dog has sat and been rewarded. I do not run the dog down and replace it where I blew the stop and blow it loudly in its ear . The stop has to come from the dog wanting to do it, then through `careful' repetition it virtually becomes `instinctive' to my stop whistle. i.e. the dogs arse is heading towards the ground on hearing that whistle before the dog has time to `think' about doing it....or not doing it
The stop/sit remains a `game' that leads onto other `games' be it recall, retrieve or carry on hunting, and even back on the lead game it should be kept `upbeat'. The trouble with a lot of people the stop/ sit and most of the other stuff we train for is made too serious too soon, purely because we want to push on and the stop is quite critical in many aspects of what we want to train. I like my pups to learn at their own pace, and as pups fun is the fastest way they learn. My pup, whose a year old, was this morning wound up by scenting and seeing a couple of roe on our outing. She flushed a third unseen which then stopped not far from me, I stopped her on hand signal and then let her watch it away. Being wound up I knew she was going to follow its line when I released her, which she did, pipped the stop and she sat straight away, not instinctive yet but fast, she still wanted that deer though, and I had to repeat the exercise on release. I then threw a retrieve for a distraction, which she did well. came away smiling and with a happy dog, what's the rush?

[Aimeetess]

Interesting post - thank you! Don't apologize, to experienced people I people sound really stupid.

Clearly you know what you're on about and your dogs sound great. I do think though as I'm a novice, If i start blowing the stop whistle, he ignores and I ignore the bad. Will he not learn to just ignore that stop whistle?
Hes done very well recently in a more enclosed space with a few stops, we don't do tons of stop work just a odd few here and there. We went into a big open field today. We done a few stops as well as some lovely long blind retrieves along the hedge lines (ran like a absolute rocket out as well) and odd direction work. He done amazing. Bought every retrieve to hand, the problem we use to have was in the big field he use to do a 'victory' lap but I've been trying to train that out of him in a smaller enclosed space and it seems to work as today in a 25+ acre field he bought every retrieve straight back. The few stops he done well, I gave tons of praise and I threw a pheasant wing dummy out on the very quick stop. He completely ignored one of the stop commands so I caught up with him and put him where I asked, didn't blow the stop whistle or do it aggressively. Just stopped him sniffing about/ignoring the whistle/me and put him where I blew the stop, this is what the gun dog trainer recommended me to do?.. Is this the incorrect thing to do? The same trainer also told me to drag him by his scruff a lot if he stepped out of line, which I haven't done.


I want him to work for me because he enjoys it/have a good bond so any method that avoids hands on training or force is ideal. He now stays much much closer to me when in open space, instead of buggering off though.

[munstyman]

No you don't sound stupid, you sound like one your in a rush and two your being pulled from pillar to post from getting too much `advise' from different quarters. Your trainer is the one that has seen you with your dog, they are the one who you should listen to the most, but if you don't understand the reasoning behind what they say you should ask them to explain. Never be afraid of telling them though if your uncomfortable with a particular method and either ask for an alternative or offer up your own for their opinion.
My methods suit me, they require a lot of patience and flexibility with time, you sometimes have to wait a long time for a dog to offer the right response. Here again, because I start doing it from the time I get the pup home, the dog gets use to `offering' different behaviours early on and therefore needs less encouragement to try different things for the reward. They rarely `shut down' like a dog that has been always `shown' how to do things, when something new is asked of them, they just try something else. Where ever possible I guide the dog to the behaviour I want by controlling the learning environment so the chances of getting the right response from the dog quicker is achieved by limiting the `wrong' options. You have done exactly the same by working on the delivery in a small enclosed space rather than a large open one, basically you were setting the dog up to fail in the large one with both a higher distractions from you available and the ability of the dog to offer the wrong `lap of honour' option.
The same with the stop whistle, if you control the environment when training/proofing it and when you apply it, you can afford to ignore the bad because there will be little else for the dog to do. In the early days of distance control I keep the stop/sit hand signal raised after the whistle, so that as soon as the dog regains composure it has a visual reminder of what it was asked, it then can comply ( all be it late ) and be rewarded but without the need to have repeat of the whistle. Your not allowing the dog to learn to `ignore' the whistle or see it as a negative, in fact I find the opposite, with mine giving me that `oops look' because they have failed the `game' on their terms, not mine...the start of self control perhaps?
The stick in the ointment is of course the forming of a bad habit, by allowing it to keep doing something wrong, especially if its rewarding for the dog. This is the only time I intervene, ironically I use the stop/sit for this purpose ( why I keep it positive ) or a distraction, or throw (metaphorically ) something new at the dog for them to learn. Remember if its got a bad habit that needs breaking, its still your fault not the dogs, you need to change your ways and set a good example
Remember if it is working for you and the dog, keep doing it. You should only change your method if what your doing is clearly not working or another option suits your temperament or that of your dogs. Don't change just because you can or because someone on faceblurb thinks its what you should be doing because its the latest new fad and gets `likes'
ps my dogs are far from angels, encouraging self thinking and problem solving means they are not slow to take advantage of any weaknesses...mine is pushing me off my chair as I type

[Nickheref]

Sorry if I came across harsh, but its an irritation when people use that dead bird/ runner argument to trick train the dog, and I consider it as a trick, often used to judge a dogs control rather than of practical need.
To train specifically for it, with a young dog, 9/10 will lead to confusion for the dog and add hesitance to the retrieve or an overall drop in enthusiasm, especially on the run out, as the dog wanders into `anticipation' mode. In an older more experienced dog, that has both the stop and directional training well understood, I've found it will do it anyway ,( on the rare occasions you might put the dog in that situation), so adding it to a young dogs `training' is not necessary and potentially has more negative effects than positive ones.

I agree with this, in young dogs I expect them to keep looking where they are sent and I do not try and stop and redirect them or want them to look to me for help at that stage. The danger is in my mind if you do it too young the dog will start expecting YOU to find the bird for it, which looks great on the training ground, whereas you want IT to find the bird for you!

[Aimeetess]

Nearly 10 days since my last post, time to bore you all again!

We have been working on lines and the stop whistle. I’ve got the stop whistle close to perfect (can’t say perfect yet!) in an enclosed field with only some rabbit scent. Started to occasionally ask for a stop now in the farmers 30 acre open field with lots of rabbit scent and rabbit holes, plus 200 sheep and so far so good. Currently only blowing the stop when he’s not too far away as don’t want to set him up to fail.

All dummies recently are straight back to hand, even in massive fields, and he won’t let go now until I say dead. He’ll even sit and hold it, unless I take it off him before so pleased with that.

He done a lovely blind retrieve yesterday - all of the 200 sheep followed us across the field as I made the mistake of taking a bag with me. I placed a dummy a good length of distance down the hedge line. Set my cocker up and had a crowd of sheep around us. I moved some of the sheep out of the way so he could run through and I sent him on the blind (have farmers permission, farmer actually enjoys watching my cocker work sometimes and the young sheep follow me as they think I may feed them, dogs don’t bother them/they don’t mind dogs whatsoever!) fair play to my cocker, he ran straight back and picked the dummy even with the ton of distraction of the sheep. Didn’t even look at them, totally ignored them but I suppose he does see them daily.

Another good retrieve this week, longer grass and it was a blind again, so a challenge. Sent him back, he went back so far. Stopped and looked at me for help, I gave the back hand direction and said ‘GET BACK’ and he turned and went back in a perfect straight line to find the dummy. Was really chuffed with that one, gave me a massive smile and gave him tons of praise. Was possibly to far back as he’s never stopped and asked for my help/direction before which was my own fault, but chuffed how nicely he done.

His directions are going well. Can put 2 dummies to his L/R now and direct him nicely to which one I’d like, even tried one blind to his right and he done well. I have started sitting him in a field with the lab, throwing dummies all around them. Getting the lab to retrieve one, then him to retrieve one (point him/lab to the one I want) and vice versa as trying to mimic picking up on a shoot day, both done a lovely job and helps with his steadiness.

When doing some hunting work, I can get him into any type of cover when I say ‘in’ and he clearly loves it bashing through cover. I mean he’ll hit brambles, anything. I still stand there gobsmacked what he goes in, its unbelievable (never owned a spaniel as you can tell!)
When hunting woodland or cover he’s the most difficult as he gets SO heated up.. tail looks like its mental wag machine.
I’m constantly on his case still but hes now looking at me for direction/where to go instead of hunting for himself and I can keep him at a nice distance. I can stop him or get his attention and give him a right/left direction into cover to hunt, sometimes I’ll place a dummy in there. He’ll do some lovely work for a dummy but can’t do to much dummy work in woodland etc, as after a couple of retrieves he gets bored and will still bring them back but you can see he isn’t enjoying it as much and concentration is elsewhere. Hes happy to hunt just on the scent of rabbit or pheasant, without finding a dummy all the time (or just occasionally finding one) but my OH keeps telling me there HAS to always be a dummy there for him if i'm getting him into cover (can someone tell me if that’s correct?) as If i done this he'd get bored of them.
In an open field, hed retrieve dummies all day but I suppose there is less distraction and scents.

So currently, he is doing well.. however today we had about 100 seagulls come over us while he was mooching about and he was constantly running in circles, mind he was in an enclosed field yet still thought he could get them. He has only done it twice and only does it while his attention isn’t on me as I give him some ‘play’ time with the lab in a penned off field. Hoping as he gets older he’ll outgrow that..

[ips]

Sounds like your doing a great job aimee

[Aimeetess]

Haven’t written on this post for over a month now, sorry this is its quite long and boring!

Yesterday we had our first ‘proper’ 1-1 gundog training session. It was at a location local to us with lots of deer, rabbit, duck etc so he was excited and I was so nervous I was shaking, sad or what. Harleys recall has started to get worse again and was nearly at the stage I got scared to let him off.
The trainer wanted to get to grip what Harley and me could do. We started with a simple retrieve off a concrete pad, perfect. He then made me sit Harley up and I walked around him at a distance and picked a dummy, then sent him for another marked retrieve while I was at a distance. Wee also done some work on sitting him up, dummy is thrown, then calling him back to me and then sending him. He done a great job and the trainer was impressed by his delivery.

We then got him hunting, the part I was most worried about. Apparently I tend to get him to start hunting by pointing in a direction therefore Harley thinks hes expected to run up the hedge after a dummy, ball etc. Something I hadn’t even realised I done. Instead I used the seek command and he started hopping around. I recalled him once, no problem. I then recalled a few minutes later, he completely blanked the recall. I showed the trainer how I’d chase him down and grab his scruff, which did not phase him whatsoever and he went to do it again. The trainer said that a better way once I’ve chased him down, is to hold his jaw/skin under his mouth (not aggressively) look at him, don’t say anything, and pull him towards you sharply twice, blowing the recall whistle, then let him walk towards you a third time and praise him.

I’ve always tried to be positive only with him mind I don’t think this was ‘hurting’ him in anyway, but as his recall has got worse and worse, nothing so far has worked so something else needs to be tried. After that the recall was noticeably better, he picked a nice couple of dummies and started sniffing off again, ignored recall completely, I chased him down and I tried this new ‘way’ which seemed to have more affect.
The trainer said a perfect stop would help us, so we worked on this next for a short period. Dummy thrown, sent him, blew the stop almost instantly. Perfect stop. Trainer threw another dummy so he thought he was stopping to see something, then I sent him back for the first dummy. The trainer then had a go and stopped him 3 times on the way to a long retrieve, Harley impressed me doing so well, then straight back to hand.

We then finished by the trainer placing a marked retrieve in the field in long grass, we then walked straight across the field (no paths at all, just long grass) with Harley at heel and the trainer said tell me when you want to stop and send him for it. The trained stopped at about 50 yards, I said I should be able to go to the building, about 200 yards as we do a lot of long retrieves and blinds. At this point ducks were in sight and pretty sure Harley forgot it was there completely. I sat him up and pointed him, Harley marked something to our left so I said to the trainer sorry I’ve got to point his head facing where I want him to run. Pointed him in the direction, thinking ‘please don’t run to my left’ and said get back. He ran a perfect straight line like a rocket, across the field and found the dummy. The trainer said ‘nothing wrong with that!’

He advised me on how to get our heel work nicer and finished there, overall very pleased and learnt a lot. The trainer said ‘you’ve done a great job, Harley is much better than I think and you need more confidence in him and yourself, and to work on those things I think he’ll be good. Stop that free running too’

I was confused by one thing though and the trainer had to shoot off so haven’t managed to ask him yet. When I stopped him on the whistle and a dummy was thrown, instead of sending him for that dummy with just arm up ‘out’. The trainer was making me blow the stop whistle again, then arm up ‘out’ even though he was already sat. Can anyone explain this?

Throughout the session he kept mentioning how I should stop all free time/’go play time’ as it could ruin him and should only focus on training. I’m still unsure about this as he comes daily with me to see the horses and is great walking up the field, If I box to somewhere to ride he loves coming and we have a holiday booked in summer where we let the dogs play on the beach. I’m going to see if I can sort out his recall and carry on with ‘go play’ time but if his recall doesn’t improve maybe ‘go play time’ will have to end.

[ips]

Aimee, more experienced than i will be along soon but re your question, i would think the second whistle is to get the dogs attention on you so that the thrown dummy does not become a signal to run in...but....i could be talking total tosh

[Miesque]

Reinforcing the stop as it becomes associated with a positive outcome for the dog.

Play thing is up to you, mine only play on one specific route with someone else - other than that it's work or heel but lots of people successfully train a walking routine and still have very effective working or competing dogs