Stopping to flush of the real thing

[Aimeetess]

[quote=Aimeetess post_id=286537 time=<a href="tel:1541268825">1541268825</a> user_id=9305]
[quote="Springcopse spaniels" post_id=286532 time=<a href="tel:1541265492">1541265492</a> user_id=9893]
[quote=Aimeetess post_id=286530 time=<a href="tel:1541261111">1541261111</a> user_id=9305]
Thanks for all the comments. We’ve been working SO hard on the stop and recall with rabbits, on a long extension lead so he can’t feel it but I have control. He flushes and I yank him so he stops, but without that lead he’d 100% try and chase!

Today we picked up on our shoot. He sat quietly waiting, on the first drive he found a partridge in cover that wasn’t hit (gun said he hit it and it was dead) and he chased it, he came back to recall once he flew off so didn’t mind that to much and hunted a nice bit of grass for a bird which wasn’t there.

Second drive was the ducks, he’s never picked ducks before but lots landed and excitement levels were high. I waited until the end of the drive he picked 2 perfectly and was working the lab as well who also picked 2, we then sweeped the drive as a duck came in to land so we kept away and kept a close eye on him. My cocker was working to the whistle quartering across the field, he saw it and was GONE. I did not expect him to ever chase a duck and he’s fed the ducks with me weekly and never even thought about it. I legged it after him as he ignored everything, he got to it and just looked at me and the duck not touching it, so I grabbed him and yes he did get a smack.

I made him heel and took him away from that area to hunt (on open grass with brambles) down the other end of the field for another dead duck. He hunted nice on the whistle, found the duck delivered to hand and just as I went to put him on the lead he was only a foot away from me when another duck came to land and my cocker saw it from the other side of the field, he was gone, and he’s incredibilty fast.

This time all the guns saw and were shouting he’s gonna peg it, I chased him across the field in witness of everyone.. as again he ignored every whistle or me shouting, he didn’t peg it he just stopped looking at it. Again, he got another smack and sorry to say it was a hard smack. He wasn’t tired as didn’t do much so put it down to excitement and high drive.

One of the guns (who had a untrained fat lab who just ran riot the entire drive picking random birds in front of us) made a snark comment ‘who trained that dog’ and I broke down into tears shamefully and walked back to the car, We watched the last drive but he remained on a lead.

It upset me someone that has no idea on gundogs and he comments on mine, maybe it was suppose to be funny but it was said in front of everyone at the wrong time.

I have no idea how to get him to stop chasing things, it’s suddenly got worse even though we have been working on it so much every day. I now am seriously considering the e collar.
He is a smart dog but suddenly the reward is the chase and he tends to know if he’s on a lead. He doesn’t care about being chased down and grabbed, tail still wags.. he’s such a hard stubborn dog. He just wants to please me but am now completely stuck on how to go forward.

Clearly the dog is not fit for prime time. Have you as i think i suggested visited a flying pen yet
Until you do something you will be deeper in the shit and an even bigger hill to climb. Have you been to any of tge trainers i suggested to you
The trouble with forums ia people ask for advice and is duly given, some better than others and people trudge on regardless hoping to muddle through
[/quote]

Can you explain by not fit for prime time? As in mentally? As physically he is one of the fittest spaniels I’ve seen but I’m guessing you mean not fit to work pretty much.

I haven’t been able to find a flying pen.. and I’ve not been to any of those trainers you suggested however I did go to John Cooks apprentice as apparently John doesn’t do many lessons anymore . I can’t say he gave us any help and cost a lot. Im honest and right now I don’t have the funds for any lessons, my horse has been sick and cost me a fortune in vet fees in the last few weeks I can just about afford to eat so have no money for a lesson.

I have been going along with all the advice given by the forum and appreciate it all, your advice on being quick after him (as I was sloppy to catch him you said) when he ignores has helped endlessly with his turn and stop, he hunts better than ever thanks to your advice, UNLESS he’s flushed live game nothing works.
[/quote]

Shane trains to open qualifying level and trials at open level too. I do not know what facilities he has access to.
A dog such as yours is a liability for a shoot, and as said not fit in my view to be of benefit on a commercial enterprise.
Join some fb groups such as the training days page and gundogs and ask for pens that way near you. I like to see people succeed with tgeor dogs and by no means hope i haven't offended you. You are welcome to use my pen in sussex if that helps
[/quote]

Clearly the dog is not fit for prime time. Have you as i think i suggested visited a flying pen yet
Until you do something you will be deeper in the shit and an even bigger hill to climb. Have you been to any of tge trainers i suggested to you
The trouble with forums ia people ask for advice and is duly given, some better than others and people trudge on regardless hoping to muddle through

Can you explain by not fit for prime time? As in mentally? As physically he is one of the fittest spaniels I’ve seen but I’m guessing you mean not fit to work pretty much.

I haven’t been able to find a flying pen.. and I’ve not been to any of those trainers you suggested however I did go to John Cooks apprentice as apparently John doesn’t do many lessons anymore . I can’t say he gave us any help and cost a lot. Im honest and right now I don’t have the funds for any lessons, my horse has been sick and cost me a fortune in vet fees in the last few weeks I can just about afford to eat so have no money for a lesson.

I have been going along with all the advice given by the forum and appreciate it all, your advice on being quick after him (as I was sloppy to catch him you said) when he ignores has helped endlessly with his turn and stop, he hunts better than ever thanks to your advice, UNLESS he’s flushed live game nothing works.

Shane trains to open qualifying level and trials at open level too. I do not know what facilities he has access to.
A dog such as yours is a liability for a shoot, and as said not fit in my view to be of benefit on a commercial enterprise.
Join some fb groups such as the training days page and gundogs and ask for pens that way near you. I like to see people succeed with tgeor dogs and by no means hope i haven't offended you. You are welcome to use my pen in sussex if that helps

His apprentice has no access to rabbit pens or birds unfortunately and asked me to let my cocker sniff the bolting rabbit so he now isn’t interested in bolting rabbits as he knows what they are with a member on here said was a fundamental mistake..

We don’t pick up on commercial shoots.. we pick up on my other half’s shoot and he accepts the dogs young and will make mistakes but he did NOT peg or touch a live bird. I wouldn’t say he’s a liability and yes that does come across a bit harsh and not exactly encouraging me to want to carry on. This is a training page.. we all learn from our mistakes and I bet many dogs are worse than mine I’m just honest and open. Compared to the other dogs on the shoots I attend he’s pretty well behaved.. he did chase today yes but that’s literally his only fault he’s had since picking up and he’s found many birds other experienced dogs missed which is great in my books.

I think I’ll stop posting on here as an constantly judges and put down.
RM, Get the dog I’ll deserve? Really?! His stop is perfect unless on live game and every trainer has been shocked how different he is once he flushes something and how he goes into tone deaf mode. One trainer said he was the toughest chap he’s met.

I think I’ll leave it there,

Thanks to everyone that has helped and appreciate all the advice. Won’t give up on this dog even if I feel like I should.

[ips]

Sleep on it Aimee then come back to the forum there are many experienced folk on here that can help with good advice and encouragement, doNt let one harsh comment keep you away from the wealth of knowledge on here. Please re consider

[Springfield Pointers]

Its only dog training, chaps. We do this because we love the dogs and what they bring us. There is nobody ive met, who has a dog that has never made a mistake, or been a liability. You need a thick skin to play with working dogs, there is always going to be someone who knows better, or thinks they have the answer. The truth is, everyone is winging it and working it out as they go along. If there was a formula everyone would have faultlesss perfection.

Take what You want out of your experiences with dogs. Remember why you do it, and disregard what you choose to. Take advice from people who you feel can add value and bin the rest, there is always going to be someone who is going to have more experience.

The field trial and shooting world has been ruined by self opinion and kennel blindness, dont let unpleasantness ruin what is a fundamentally a rewarding experience. Be sensible. Have a plan. Understand what you like. Align yourself with people who think like you, and who add value to your life.Tell everyone else to piss off.

[ips]

Its only dog training, chaps. We do this because we love the dogs and what they bring us. There is nobody ive met, who has a dog that has never made a mistake, or been a liability. You need a thick skin to play with working dogs, there is always going to be someone who knows better, or thinks they have the answer. The truth is, everyone is winging it andcworking it out as they go along. If there was a formula everyone woyld have faultlesss perfection.

Take what You want out of your experiences with dogs. Remember why you do it, and disregard what you choose to. Take advice from people who you feel can add value and bin the rest, there is always going to be someone who is going to have more experience.

The field trial and shooting world has been ruined by self opinion and kennel blindness, dont let unpleasantness ruin what is a fundamentally a rewarding experience. Be sensible. Have a plan. Understand what you like. Align yourself withbpeople who think like you.. Tell everyone else to piss off.

Very well said Sir

[Judy]

Gawd I find myself agreeing with a bloke yet again, SP is right! I have encountered some shite along the way, it happens, although in my day it wasn't so public as it is nowadays with Facebook and Fora, it was often face to face snide comments, usually when competing although I have had minor issues on shoots, luckily I'm old enough and ugly enough now to stand up to bullies. Back then I would let it upset me too but its not life threatening.
I have been playing with gun dogs for 30 years now and know very well that no dog is perfect, no method of training is perfect and no advice you receive will be perfect! To say your dog is a liability is nonsense, he is inexperienced as is his owner and we all have to start somewhere.

[ips]

Gawd I find myself agreeing with a bloke yet again, SP is right! I have encountered some shite along the way, it happens, although in my day it wasn't so public as it is nowadays with Facebook and Fora, it was often face to face snide comments, usually when competing although I have had minor issues on shoots, luckily I'm old enough and ugly enough now to stand up to bullies. Back then I would let it upset me too but its not life threatening.
I have been playing with gun dogs for 30 years now and know very well that no dog is perfect, no method of training is perfect and no advice you receive will be perfect! To say your dog is a liability is nonsense, he is inexperienced as is his owner and we all have to start somewhere.

Well said Judy

I think its hard for some to remember how daunting it is to train and handle a gundog , folk need encouragement from time to time

[newf]

Aimee, I think you are doing great in spite of this hurdle. Real game, running, or, flying low epitomizes temptation for a dog, so don’t be hard on yourself. If it were easy, everyone would have a well trained dog and there would be no need for pro trainers. Consistently correcting the dog for not stopping is hard to do in an uncontrolled environment, and compounded with an audience of critics. Any consolation, your whistle has marked the moment for the dog and so correcting afterward is justified. The flying pen would benefit immensely cause you can drive home repetitiously and consistently that you (dog) can flush but not chase. Keep your chin, you’ll get there.

[Naj]

I think SP sums it up nicely. It’s supposed to be fun. You know you’ve a problem with the chasing and this can be hard to rectify on a shooting day. But you know that and it’s not the end of the world especially on a small informal shoot like yours. You just have to keep nibbling away at it and the dog may well learn to discriminate with more experience at picking up. I think I’d pack in chasing after him the length of the field on a shoot day because it isn’t working. And also stop grumbling at him when he does return, otherwise he may well decide not to bother. You’ve had plenty of good advice so decide what suits you and follow it. That’s what we all did and Even the best have made mistakes along the way. But learn from your mistakes and successes and you’ll become a better trainer. You can only learn so much from the internet, trainers and books, the rest is down to working things out for yourself. It’s sometimes frustrating but dogs aren’t machines, and as you say you had some high points in the day, too. The highs and lows are just part of the fun of it. Take it too seriously and you’ll just kill the joy. We’ve all had embarrassing moments with our dogs so you’re in good company.

Naj

[sandra]

Aimee I hope you are still reading these comments, honestly we have all been there and the little four legged beggars will continue to confound you throughout their lives!
First day out with my usually reliable 7 year old springer we beat through woodland to flush birds out onto a stubble field where the guns are lined out and he spotted a bird shot out on said field and just legged it from within the wood leaving me frantically blowing the whistle then giving up as he picked the bird and bought it all the way back to me. Yesterday on the same drive I was keeping more of an eye on him but suddenly we got to roughly the same distance toward the end of the wood and he legged it again! This time no bird had been shot but he ran out to the line of guns, ran up and down expecting to find something to pick, realised he was a bit premature and ran back to me! I was not amused!
Now I realise we have a problem just on this particular drive so next week I plan to call him in before that trigger area and walk him to heel and flush the birds myself. It's the only thing I can do at the moment as I don't have the time or facilities to correct this this week so will just have to manage it on the shoot day for now.
Hopefully you will be able to do something similar by managing the problem on shoot days whilst continuing training at other times. Don't give up, I bet with time and patience he'll end up being a great shooting companion

[trekmoor]

Hi Aimee, don't take critiscism too much to heart especially where dog training is concerned. You will find that the only thing two good ,experienced trainers can agree about is that a third good, experienced trainer - - - who is not present - - - is doing it all wrong !

Never be too worried of criticism to admit to failures or mistakes. Very often the thing that makes other people believe you when you describe a brilliant bit of work done by you and your dog is the fact that you bluntly told the truth about when things went wrong.

If you ever read through some of my "diary" type bletherings you will see me admit to many mistakes . I am what is described as "very experienced " so if I made and still make plenty of mistakes then surely you can too ? I learned to be a half decent dog trainer by making mistakes !

Wullie