A one man dog....or not

[ips]

Having my friends heeler for a week has been most interesting , generally my one has tolerated her but has on occasions been a bit jealous of any affection I have shown to her, she has for want of a better expression "put her in her place" by way of a snap or growl. My one has also tried humping her on occasions.

These incidents have had me thinking about the hierarchy or even dominance theory.

The fact that the heeler has taken to me in a big way and has shown no signs (that I can see) of missing her human mum and dad has also made me question a dogs true loyalty as it seems to me that a dog will very quickly settle with anyone than feeds it and gives some affection towards it. Obviously the above is based on my very limited experience but I thought it was worth a debate, as in "is a dog ever truly a one man or woman dog" ??

[CockerCanuck]

I think it depends on the personality of the dog and that is determined significantly by breeding. I once had a very interesting conversation with an older trainer of service dogs, specifically dogs for the blind. I asked him why when I was young all the "Seeing Eye" dogs were German Shepherds, and some Dobermans, but now they seem to be almost exclusively Labradors or Goldens. He said it has to do with the changes in how they are trained. In the 50's and 60's one trainer would take the dog from pup to finished product when it would be placed with its new owner. However this was not very efficient so the system they use now was developed. Young pups are placed with a family for socialization, then they are assessed and move on to a guide dog pre-school, then the successful ones go on to a sort of high school and finally are placed with the top level trainers for finishing. The trainer explained that Shepherds don't do well in this changing environment as they become very bonded with their trainer and shut down learning for a few weeks or even a month every time they are moved. Whereas Retrievers are basically pretty happy as long as you are nice to them and they get fed regularly. They move through the transitions pretty seamlessly and so are more efficient to train.

[newf]

Eze, is revealing what her wolf ancestors have given her for survival. That is, to protect and secure resources. Spots to lay on and your affection are all valuable to the instincts of her as a dog. However, I would not let her get away with setting any ownership of coveted resources in the house, since in reality, you’re the top wolf, in maintaining order. All the resources are yours, first.

As to loyalty, again I believe it is a matter of resources, too. A dog is simple, its needs: water, food, affection, leadership and play. The last two, are the kingpins in a affectionate and close partnership. Loyalty is a human idea, that is attractive to our sensibilities and pride.

[trekmoor]

I don't think any dog is truly a "one man dog" although some dogs take longer to make the adjustment to a new owner (pack leader ?) than others. If a dog in a pack situation had it's pack leader killed or demoted in rank it would have to adjust to the new circumstances or be in a bit of trouble from the new pack leader. I think accepting a new leader is a survival trait in dogs.

My long time "boss dog" Charlie the cocker spaniel ruled supreme here for many years....only now at 12 years old has he begun to accept he is not as dominant as he used to be. He humped any bitch or dog I brought into my garden or house and all of them, no matter what age or size they were seemed to just accept being humped. The only exception to that was his sire Billy, he never accepted being dominated but made no attempt to usurp his son's "kingship."

My daughters GSP is now almost 18 months old and he is a big, well made dog. When brought here he cowers in submission to both Charlie and to my springer " Edge." Away from my house he accepts no other dogs "domination" and he beat up the last dog that tried it's luck at dominating him. I think which dog is dominant is often a situational thing ? The GSP, when he comes here, accepts that he steps down in rank.

I know that the "domination theory" is now said to be discredited or even "proven" to be wrong but personally , I still think there is such a thing. Dogs would not have survived for all these thousands of years if they could not accept new leaders.

Wullie

[ips]

Interesting replies...
For the first few days eze would snap and growl if the heeler got too close to me, she continually tried to hump her (she also on occasions tries to.hump the wife's leg but never does it to me) I kept telling her to leave it or no and even pushed her off the heeler but she is a determined little bitch. I can't work out if this behaviour is dominance or not. Anyway a few days passed and I got fed up of it, I shouted at her and put her in her crate, ever since then she hasn't snapped at her and has only tried to hump her a few times. Coincidence that she has settled with the heeler being here or did my actions tell the pair of them that I am the boss in this pack..?

I have read quite a bit about the pack leadership / dominance aspect in the past and I remain unconvinced either way.

[newf]

These dogs, need each other in an instinctive way and most likely, have a top dog, but chances are, there is no loyalty.

[Naj]

I think the fact that dogs have survived and flourished among humans for generations is proof of their innate flexibility and nothing to do with leadership, or dominance. There is an interesting debate to be had over whether we chose dogs as a species or dogs chose us, as a species. Most of the older generation on here were Weaned on the notion that pack leadership was central to our relationship with dogs, simply because that’s all we knew at the time, and that still hangs on and is very seductive when we can’t understand a particular behaviour. Humping can be for several reasons but invariably people jump to the old dominance theory. People rarely think that it may well be for pleasure and/or normal dog behaviour or even an essential outlet for the dog’s wellbeing, but because it embarrasses us we punish the dog to try to stop it. Then, of course, the dog stops humping and that must be because we’ve asserted our pack leadership and Alpha status (positively reinforcing for us ) rather than we’ve just punished an unwanted, but perfectly natural, dog behaviour, and the myth lives on. There has been a lot of research on feral, street and village dogs that shows that there are loose hierarchies and fluidity of resource related dominance but not the Disneyfied image of the pack leader and strict pecking order that was once so popular.

As regards dogs adapting to new environments. Speak to a Boarding Kennel owner or anyone who takes dogs in and they’ll tell you how quickly dogs settle in and adapt. I’ve had several dogs in over the years and they’ve all been comfortable and relaxed with me within the first 24 hours and could be safely exercised off-lead. And it’s fairly typical for them to be reluctant to go back.

Naj

[MDP]

I don't think any dog is truly a "one man dog" although some dogs take longer to make the adjustment to a new owner (pack leader ?) than others. If a dog in a pack situation had it's pack leader killed or demoted in rank it would have to adjust to the new circumstances or be in a bit of trouble from the new pack leader. I think accepting a new leader is a survival trait in dogs.

My long time "boss dog" Charlie the cocker spaniel ruled supreme here for many years....only now at 12 years old has he begun to accept he is not as dominant as he used to be. He humped any bitch or dog I brought into my garden or house and all of them, no matter what age or size they were seemed to just accept being humped. The only exception to that was his sire Billy, he never accepted being dominated but made no attempt to usurp his son's "kingship."

My daughters GSP is now almost 18 months old and he is a big, well made dog. When brought here he cowers in submission to both Charlie and to my springer " Edge." Away from my house he accepts no other dogs "domination" and he beat up the last dog that tried it's luck at dominating him. I think which dog is dominant is often a situational thing ? The GSP, when he comes here, accepts that he steps down in rank.

I know that the "domination theory" is now said to be discredited or even "proven" to be wrong but personally , I still think there is such a thing. Dogs would not have survived for all these thousands of years if they could not accept new leaders.

Wullie

I remember a time when you threw a retrieve for Edge and he brought it back to me some 40 yards away from you

Its probably the real reason Bill doesn't do anymore retrieve drills with edge (health thing is a cover), he's worried Edge will trot back down the M6 then M5 to me after being sent out and collecting a blind

With gundogs i know for a fact mine would forget me quickly for someone else as long as they got what they love, which is training a working on a shoot/trial. I think we are too quick to put human emotions into our dogs way of thinking.

[trekmoor]

I remember a time when you threw a retrieve for Edge and he brought it back to me some 40 yards away from you

Yes, I remember that too. You had been training Edge for a few weeks and that was all it took for Edge to switch his allegiance. You gave him the work he loves plus some affection and some discipline and he was very happy to accept you as his new leader.

I saw the same thing about a month ago when I visited the man who now has Ghillie the Labrador. She still recognised me and greeted me but she worked for him .

Wullie

[Judy]

Much as I hate contradicting Naj I gave one of my Cockers to a very dear friend who was short of a dog. Short story, friend got cancer and 11 months down the line I got my dog back. She went bonkers when she heard me blow the recall whistle, then, when she came home, hurtled from the car and straight indoors to her original bed. Of course it could just have been her efforts to make me feel guilty.

I've had numerous dogs staying with us over the years, they all settled ok but any issues between them and my dogs kicked off after about two weeks - feet under the table time?