Probably over analysing again but....

[ips]

My young dogs hunt quite happily and naturally without ever having had a bird in their mouth, or, initially, without ever seeing a bird or rabbit. And dogs run in because anticipation is an integral component of every behaviour chain. Training, or the lack of it, determines how a (trained) dog behaves, and frustration issues are often down to poor training and management. A dog can’t know what’s beyond it’s ken so a beating dog that has never been shot over has no aspirations beyond finding and flushing the next bird. What shooting over a dog does is to cement the relationship (in that context) with the handler, the gun and the bird - Routines and rituals through repetition.

Naj

I wonder if pigeon from a hide has any good effect on the relationship or is the lack of the hunt a factor ??

Every time you’re doing stuff with your dog you’re developing the relationship. All in context, of course. How you manage that time together determines the type of relationship you have. Pigeon shooting in a hide is showing the dog the power of the gun and its place in the grand order of things, in relation to you, the gun and the bird. As with shooting over a questing dog it’s all pretty simple and predictable (hunt, flush, shot, retrieve, repeat), only with pigeon shooting it’s lots of hanging around interspersed with flurries of activity, but all encompassing predictable routines and rituals through repetition.

Naj

The strange thing to.me is that although she is hard work to keep steady in many scenarios she is THE best in a hide. I would have thought that this scenario would have been the hardest but it isnt

[Rough_mut]

I agree Rough_mut, it's instinctive to chase and try and catch. It's the catching part we fear most: how much instinct is there to chew and devour ? So, there is breeding for moderation of one thing and an increase in another.

As to Ips question: Imo if the instinct is there then any part of the chain is rewarding. The only thing I see that would kill instinct is intolerable punishment of some sort that dependably happens with any part of the behavior.

I've got to the stage where I dont even fear it. We have an old lab on the shoot that's retired but still goes shooting. It is the only dog to catch multiple voles in a day. And on every day it will peg at least one bird.

I put it down to her being old and slow, shes stealthy!

My dog has pegged several birds, hes never caught one mid air but its normally hes pushed it into thick cover and the bird cant get away. I have no issues with this as he brings them back and they often released and fly away unharmed.

That being said I think the more aggressively a dog goes after birds the less likely they are to catch them? They make less commotion! However do pointers peg birds often?

[CockerCanuck]

The strange thing to.me is that although she is hard work to keep steady in many scenarios she is THE best in a hide. I would have thought that this scenario would have been the hardest but it isnt
[/quote]

I don't think its strange Ips. It is very natural. I have always found the same in my waterfowl dogs which work much the same as Eze on your pigeon shoots. The blind is a barrier, even if it is pretty open. It creates a mental "space" she is supposed to be steady in. We are all familiar how well place mats or boards work in steading a dog. It creates a clear distinction between being steady (in the blind) and not. The distinction gets much fuzzier when a dog is moving and questing in clover. They already have forward momentum and no barrier between them and a bird. It is much more tempting to just keep going and grab it.

I have always found the most difficult situation to keep a dog steady is rough shooting when it is out in front of you, already moving, with no barrier between it and the flushed bird. Sitting by your side is much easier, in a blind easier yet and easiest of all is in a boat.

[ips]

Never thought of it like that CC, makes sense

[Nickheref]

I put it down to her being old and slow, shes stealthy!

My dog has pegged several birds, hes never caught one mid air but its normally hes pushed it into thick cover and the bird cant get away. I have no issues with this as he brings them back and they often released and fly away unharmed.

That being said I think the more aggressively a dog goes after birds the less likely they are to catch them? They make less commotion! However do pointers peg birds often?

One thing I disagree with Todd Agnew on is his assertion that a dog speeds up on contacting scent in a flush in an effort to catch the bird, my view is that a dog who really wants to catch the bird will slow down on first contacting body scent (unless the bird is moving in front of it) of a stationary bird to try and work out exactly where the bird is, so when the dog moves in it is right. I have had more than one springer who does this when hunting runners whereas I have seen dogs who are tremendously active miss the bird when they pile into the bush slightly wrong and the bird has made its escape and the dog has to hunt it again.

I have always assumed it is this behaviour that led to pointers and setters being developed

[Naj]

The strange thing to.me is that although she is hard work to keep steady in many scenarios she is THE best in a hide. I would have thought that this scenario would have been the hardest but it isnt

I don't think its strange Ips. It is very natural. I have always found the same in my waterfowl dogs which work much the same as Eze on your pigeon shoots. The blind is a barrier, even if it is pretty open. It creates a mental "space" she is supposed to be steady in. We are all familiar how well place mats or boards work in steading a dog. It creates a clear distinction between being steady (in the blind) and not. The distinction gets much fuzzier when a dog is moving and questing in clover. They already have forward momentum and no barrier between them and a bird. It is much more tempting to just keep going and grab it.

I have always found the most difficult situation to keep a dog steady is rough shooting when it is out in front of you, already moving, with no barrier between it and the flushed bird. Sitting by your side is much easier, in a blind easier yet and easiest of all is in a boat.
[/quote]

[Naj]

I put it down to her being old and slow, shes stealthy!

My dog has pegged several birds, hes never caught one mid air but its normally hes pushed it into thick cover and the bird cant get away. I have no issues with this as he brings them back and they often released and fly away unharmed.

That being said I think the more aggressively a dog goes after birds the less likely they are to catch them? They make less commotion! However do pointers peg birds often?

One thing I disagree with Todd Agnew on is his assertion that a dog speeds up on contacting scent in a flush in an effort to catch the bird, my view is that a dog who really wants to catch the bird will slow down on first contacting body scent (unless the bird is moving in front of it) of a stationary bird to try and work out exactly where the bird is, so when the dog moves in it is right. I have had more than one springer who does this when hunting runners whereas I have seen dogs who are tremendously active miss the bird when they pile into the bush slightly wrong and the bird has made its escape and the dog has to hunt it again.

I have always assumed it is this behaviour that led to pointers and setters being developed

Tom Agnew is following the American fashion of developing a flying flush by using planted clip wings and free flyers so the dog gets into the habit of trying to catch the bird in the air. Slightly different to what we look for because American dogs aren’t penalised for catching/trapping a bird.

Naj

[chrokeva]

Not only are they not penalized for catching a bird they are in fact counted down if the dog slows on a flush so you really want a dog driving the bird.

[ips]

Why the difference in the flush between UK and US ?

[Naj]

Why the difference in the flush between UK and US ?

I’ve always understood that it’s because training and field trials operate on planted game and inevitably there’s a high risk of trapping/pegging so it’s been brought into the culture. It’s also very easy to create a pointing spaniel if there’s any association between punishment and a dizzied bird that is slow to flush so the hard driving flush and attempted trap is encouraged.

Naj