Probably over analysing again but....

[westcountry]

The strange thing to.me is that although she is hard work to keep steady in many scenarios she is THE best in a hide. I would have thought that this scenario would have been the hardest but it isnt

I don't think its strange Ips. It is very natural. I have always found the same in my waterfowl dogs which work much the same as Eze on your pigeon shoots. The blind is a barrier, even if it is pretty open. It creates a mental "space" she is supposed to be steady in. We are all familiar how well place mats or boards work in steading a dog. It creates a clear distinction between being steady (in the blind) and not. The distinction gets much fuzzier when a dog is moving and questing in clover. They already have forward momentum and no barrier between them and a bird. It is much more tempting to just keep going and grab it.

I have always found the most difficult situation to keep a dog steady is rough shooting when it is out in front of you, already moving, with no barrier between it and the flushed bird. Sitting by your side is much easier, in a blind easier yet and easiest of all is in a boat.
[/quote]
Makes good sense.

[chrokeva]

I think it is a very different game over there than here in the US.
If you look at Keith Erlandson's book cover he shows a Springer driving a bird with the dog's mouth open trying to grab that bird (exactly what we want in the US). Keith is a UK guy so I would assume this was once desirable in the UK for dogs to have aggressive flushes?

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[Naj]

It’s never been desirable in the UK for dogs to have an aggressive flush like that. I remember reading that Erlandson was getting over to the US more at that time and it was a nod to the practice over there. Knowing Erlandson, more likely a ploy to make his book more appealing to the American market.

Naj

[chrokeva]

Ahhhh ok that makes sense.... was wondering what that was all about.

In defense of the hard flush a pheasant will often run rather than fly on a dog that does not drive into a bird on the flush (pen raised or not). However with a hard flushing spaniel a good gun is required (that could be a good or bad thing I suppose).

[crackerd]

Ahhhh ok that makes sense.... was wondering what that was all about.

In defense of the hard flush a pheasant will often run rather than fly on a dog that does not drive into a bird on the flush (pen raised or not). However with a hard flushing spaniel a good gun is required (that could be a good or bad thing I suppose).

Whoa! - or, erm, Hup!,, Jackie - Naj is vastly overestimating the 'Merican market for spaniel training material. Most everybody I knew back in the day - not great numbers but still - bought the flushing magnum opus from the "oeuvre" of an old London Met copper named Ken Roebuck who moved to 'Merica and became a professional spaniel (and retriever?) trainer: http://www.spanieljournal.com/12bfawcett.html

MG

[Naj]

Ahhhh ok that makes sense.... was wondering what that was all about.

In defense of the hard flush a pheasant will often run rather than fly on a dog that does not drive into a bird on the flush (pen raised or not). However with a hard flushing spaniel a good gun is required (that could be a good or bad thing I suppose).

Whoa! - or, erm, Hup!,, Jackie - Naj is vastly overestimating the 'Merican market for spaniel training material. Most everybody I knew back in the day - not great numbers but still - bought the flushing magnum opus from the "oeuvre" of an old London Met copper named Ken Roebuck who moved to 'Merica and became a professional spaniel (and retriever?) trainer: http://www.spanieljournal.com/12bfawcett.html

MG

But he used pigeons for training. Anyone who has used planted game with the flushing breeds knows the pitfalls. I wouldn’t risk using a pointing breed on planted game without the security of a training line.

[CockerCanuck]

Ahhhh ok that makes sense.... was wondering what that was all about.

In defense of the hard flush a pheasant will often run rather than fly on a dog that does not drive into a bird on the flush (pen raised or not). However with a hard flushing spaniel a good gun is required (that could be a good or bad thing I suppose).

Whoa! - or, erm, Hup!,, Jackie - Naj is vastly overestimating the 'Merican market for spaniel training material. Most everybody I knew back in the day - not great numbers but still - bought the flushing magnum opus from the "oeuvre" of an old London Met copper named Ken Roebuck who moved to 'Merica and became a professional spaniel (and retriever?) trainer: http://www.spanieljournal.com/12bfawcett.html

MG

But he used pigeons for training. Anyone who has used planted game with the flushing breeds knows the pitfalls. I wouldn’t risk using a pointing breed on planted game without the security of a training line.

Naj, I am curious what you feel the pitfalls of planted pigeons are? I would be crippled in my spaniel training without them. They are cheap, widely available and I much prefer them to planted quail or partridge because once flushed and taken wing you can be sure that the dog is not going to catch them. They learn early that chasing is futile. With semi-domestic gamebirds often the flight is not as strong and a successful chase is a real possibility. +

[ips]

I concur CC, partridge and pheasant are considerably easier for the dog to peg than a pigeon.

[Nickheref]

Doesn't that rather assume that the dog would peg everything if it got the chance, I have had plenty of dogs who have had every chance to peg and don't whilst being perfectly good on runners. This is why I personally don't like the aggressive flush as to me it is simply a failed pegging attempt. Has anyone any film of an aggressive flush on a rabbit??

[chrokeva]

I concur CC, partridge and pheasant are considerably easier for the dog to peg than a pigeon.

Totally disagree with this.
When starting puppies we use pigeons. Once the puppy consistently start pegging pigeons it is time to move onto a stronger bird i.e. pheasants.
Just went through this with my young dog. As her confidence and flush came up she was pegging well over 50% of the pigeons which was telling me it was time to move onto pheasants.