Probably over analysing again but....

[ips]

I concur CC, partridge and pheasant are considerably easier for the dog to peg than a pigeon.

Totally disagree with this.
When starting puppies we use pigeons. Once the puppy consistently start pegging pigeons it is time to move onto a stronger bird i.e. pheasants.
Just went through this with my young dog. As her confidence and flush came up she was pegging well over 50% of the pigeons which was telling me it was time to move onto pheasants.

Um, interesting

[crackerd]

Jackie, on top of what you and Cam (CC) are contending, methinks Naj needs to give us a little dissertation, or interpretation, of what he means by "any association between punishment and a dizzied bird" "creat(ing) a pointing spaniel."

If he is getting at use of the e-collar for steadying spaniels that run in, that would be an erroneous assumption. In so doing - in so doing with stimulation as punishment when the dog runs in - you would create not a pointing spaniel, but a "blinking" spaniel, i.e., a dog that runs the past the bird without overtly acknowledging it in fear that it would be punished by the proverbial zap because it couldn't contain its own natural impulses to give chase as the bird flushed.

Just clarifying a little for Our Naj - I've seen it, mostly at hunt tests at the master level, where steadiness is required (but of course), and it ain't a pretty working gundog sight.

Why the difference in the flush between UK and US ?

I’ve always understood that it’s because training and field trials operate on planted game and inevitably there’s a high risk of trapping/pegging so it’s been brought into the culture. It’s also very easy to create a pointing spaniel if there’s any association between punishment and a dizzied bird that is slow to flush so the hard driving flush and attempted trap is encouraged.

MG

[CockerCanuck]

I concur CC, partridge and pheasant are considerably easier for the dog to peg than a pigeon.

Totally disagree with this.
When starting puppies we use pigeons. Once the puppy consistently start pegging pigeons it is time to move onto a stronger bird i.e. pheasants.
Just went through this with my young dog. As her confidence and flush came up she was pegging well over 50% of the pigeons which was telling me it was time to move onto pheasants.

Mmmm interesting, I am not doubting you, but wonder why our experience is so different? Perhaps our northern pigeons are more robust (I use trapped wild birds) or perhaps I plant them differently than you do. My experience is I have little trouble with dogs pegging my pigeons. I find them better than the pen raised pheasants available to me and much better than chukars or quail.

[crackerd]

I concur CC, partridge and pheasant are considerably easier for the dog to peg than a pigeon.

CC, where ips' concurrence comes from, alas, is perhaps "out of left field" in not knowing that pigeons used for pointing and flushing dogs alike in N. America are often "planted" dizzied and in thicker cover from which they cannot easily extricate themselves. That's understandable you're training pointers because you, the handler, would want the bird pointed from a distance rather than getting up wild (as is a pigeon's wont in a grain field) or getting caught (pegged) by the pointing dog. (Would think same applies for Jackie's "stronger birds" input v. pheasants and chukkar - as cover is terra incognito for pigeons and ordinarily they "wouldn't be found dead" in it (well, maybe that's the only way they're found if a flushing dog passes them by.)

I mention this also because some of us with versatile breeds (HPRs) have found that the dogs do not address pigeons as Galliformes by going on point but instead want to drive in and take the pigeons out as something alien and to be met "head on" rather than pointed from a distance. Would almost be like a dog pointing a mourning dove that flew into a hide, suppose it could happen, but... Also, sort of begs the cross-cultural shooting question: As our "flying rats" (domestic pigeons) are kin to wood pigeons in that both are of the Columbidae family, do any of our cousins have recollection of their (wood pigeons) being pointed (or flushed) on the sceptred isle?

MG

[chrokeva]

I concur CC, partridge and pheasant are considerably easier for the dog to peg than a pigeon.

Totally disagree with this.
When starting puppies we use pigeons. Once the puppy consistently start pegging pigeons it is time to move onto a stronger bird i.e. pheasants.
Just went through this with my young dog. As her confidence and flush came up she was pegging well over 50% of the pigeons which was telling me it was time to move onto pheasants.

Mmmm interesting, I am not doubting you, but wonder why our experience is so different? Perhaps our northern pigeons are more robust (I use trapped wild birds) or perhaps I plant them differently than you do. My experience is I have little trouble with dogs pegging my pigeons. I find them better than the pen raised pheasants available to me and much better than chukars or quail.

I think the quality of pigeons has a lot to do with the amount of traps for sure. Saying that at the last puppy trial I was in they used barn pigeons and my pup still trapped 1 of the two birds. Pheasants are just stronger birds in my opinion. When trying to save money in training birds I will use pigeons on Bridget and her trap record is about 85% on pigeons as compared to maybe 15% on pheasant. Believe me I would much prefer to use pigeons if it was not for the traps as they are half the cost.

[ips]

I appreciate that there is probably a huge difference in the way things are done across the pond and i have no clue about dizzied birds or even plantted birds however i very often see a pheasant or partridge sitting tight when dogging in and utilize it for training purposes so that must be a similar scenario to planted birds ?
I have noted that partridge or at least our reared red leg variety dont seem to enjoy flight very much and would much rather walk, they dont seem to take flight very quickly even when they do and as a result are relatively easy to peg. Woodpigeon on the other hand very much enjoy flight and get up very quickly. My one has pegged many a partridge and pheasant but never to the best of my memory a pigeon

[crackerd]

I appreciate that there is probably a huge difference in the way things are done across the pond and i have no clue about dizzied birds or even plantted birds however i very often see a pheasant or partridge sitting tight when dogging in and utilize it for training purposes so that must be a similar scenario to planted birds ?
I have noted that partridge or at least our reared red leg variety dont seem to enjoy flight very much and would much rather walk, they dont seem to take flight very quickly even when they do and as a result are relatively easy to peg. Woodpigeon on the other hand very much enjoy flight and get up very quickly. My one has pegged many a partridge and pheasant but never to the best of my memory a pigeon

Free intel from your friends at Wikipedia

Galliformes is an order of heavy-bodied ground-feeding birds that includes turkey, grouse, chicken, New World quail and Old World quail, ptarmigan, partridge, pheasant, francolin, junglefowl and the Cracidae. This order contains five families: Phasianidae (including chicken, quail, partridges, pheasants, turkeys, peafowl and grouse). ...Many gallinaceous species are skilled runners and escape predators by running rather than flying.

MG

[ips]

I appreciate that there is probably a huge difference in the way things are done across the pond and i have no clue about dizzied birds or even plantted birds however i very often see a pheasant or partridge sitting tight when dogging in and utilize it for training purposes so that must be a similar scenario to planted birds ?
I have noted that partridge or at least our reared red leg variety dont seem to enjoy flight very much and would much rather walk, they dont seem to take flight very quickly even when they do and as a result are relatively easy to peg. Woodpigeon on the other hand very much enjoy flight and get up very quickly. My one has pegged many a partridge and pheasant but never to the best of my memory a pigeon

Free intel from your friends at Wikipedia

Galliformes is an order of heavy-bodied ground-feeding birds that includes turkey, grouse, chicken, New World quail and Old World quail, ptarmigan, partridge, pheasant, francolin, junglefowl and the Cracidae. This order contains five families: Phasianidae (including chicken, quail, partridges, pheasants, turkeys, peafowl and grouse). ...Many gallinaceous species are skilled runners and escape predators by running rather than flying.

MG

[crackerd]

I think the quality of pigeons has a lot to do with the amount of traps for sure. Saying that at the last puppy trial I was in they used barn pigeons and my pup still trapped 1 of the two birds. Pheasants are just stronger birds in my opinion. When trying to save money in training birds I will use pigeons on Bridget and her trap record is about 85% on pigeons as compared to maybe 15% on pheasant. Believe me I would much prefer to use pigeons if it was not for the traps as they are half the cost.

Jackie, not really a matter of saving dosh but of getting value out of the birds used...for training and trials. For example, we can often get barn pigeons for a couple bucks a head for retriever training. But...unless I were working a dove and pigeon master like the Boykin, I usually pass. Because pigeons are soft-feathered and often "deplume-igate" in a larger retriever's mouth, if they haven't been masticated through and through by Labrador N. Americanus in the first place in their "zeal" to get their gob loaded. On the other hand, due to a scarcity of pen-raised waterfowl found there, Alaska was and probably still is the only state where AKC retriever trials and hunt tests can be run using pigeons as fare. What a nightmare - not just for the dogs, but for the guns, too - who are trying to hit a fast-flying, swerving smaller bird without obliterating it before the dogs have a chance to do so. Well, you can see in summation why force fetch is of great value in how we ("Septic Tanks") want our gundogs to retrieve...98% of the time. The other two percent is down to Boykins being very gentle with their gobs in the first place and FF making them even more "velvety" in delivery.

100_3155.jpg

MG

[ips]

I just off to wikipedia "boykin" as i know little about them ,