Young dogs in the field

[reidller]

I learned many things from the members of this forum, and read many things that have made me think about how I'm doing stuff. One of the things I've been reading on here is about people who advocate taking young dogs out shooting, it's something which I previously haven't done but it seems to be making more sense to me. I've got a youngish dog, 17 odd months that I wasn't going to take out this year but persuaded myself otherwise and I'm glad I did. He's far from the finished article, but I figured he's got to learn about game at some point, and being left in the back of the truck he's learning naff all.
I'm due a new pup next year and plan to get it out on game as soon as I possible and see how it goes, so my questions to the people who do it are- just how young would you take them out, and is there a point where you'd change your mind and hold off the real thing if something wasn't going to plan, like it wound it up before it could cope with it etc ?
For my own situation I'm talking about picking up on driven shoots, whether that makes any difference.

[Naj]

I get pups out on gamey ground as soon as I get them at 8 weeks old and with the pointing breeds I actively seek out game contact, and especially rabbits and hares, from the get go. But as soon as I walk out the yard I’m on gamey ground. And I always have them loose because I want them to learn in that context, not in the context of being restrained by a long line. The issue of them becoming ‘wound up’ doesn’t arise, partly because I work on engagement all the time, partly because I also work on developing an off switch in them, and partly because they become habituated and game just becomes a background noise to their life. Besides that, if a pup didn’t boil over from time to time it wouldn’t make much of a gundog. Acquiring stimulus control is all part of the learning process and that requires the making of poor choices at times so is perfectly normal.

I used to start shooting-in my cockers when they were 13-14 months but my current Vizsla pup retrieved and was a fairly competent game finder and pointer by 6 months. Consequently, I had shot a couple of snipe over her points when she was 10 months old and was on to pheasants a month later. But it all depends upon the progress of the individual dog, what facilities and time you have at your disposal and your level of experience. There are no hard and fast rules on it. But it’s becoming generally accepted in other disciplines that you should immerse pups in the environment in which they will be working when adult as often as you can. I do think that many of the problems that handlers have when introducing their dogs to game come about as a direct result of this fashion for ‘letting a pup be a pup’, whatever that means, which usually entails sheltering their dogs from game and the shooting field until they are ‘mature’ enough or trained enough to handle it, but then they find that neither the dog nor the handler are capable of coping with the results when they do finally get around to it.

Naj

[Springfield Pointers]

Like Naj, I expose my dogs to sin as early as possible. By six months they would have been exposed to falling game, and I would have very good sense of what is "under the hood", and the hunting ability of the dog. Certainly, by 17 months they would already have had one season of shooting, as well as possibly a field trial, under their belts.
The notion that exposing dogs to game, and shooting over them, too young will ruin a dog, I cannot agree with. I dontvsee tge value in keeping a dog in cotton wool for two years if it is meant to be a shooting dog, in fact, I'd think that it would create more problems than you seek to avoid.

[PRH]

Totally agree, get them out early just be sensible with the amount they do. It may be her nature but my 2 year old is really nice and steady and she’s been out on gamey ground since a pup. I’m sure the early exposure has made her pretty chilled.

[trekmoor]

I take pups onto ground with game on it as soon as they are over their puppy injections. If I have access to land on which other dogs don't go then I take pups there before their injections. I like gundogs of any breed to see and flush game just as soon as I can manage it.

As I almost always work as a back marker when picking-up, the pups I take to shoots will have heard shots in the distance and will have seen and possibly have retrieved dead birds by the time they are about 5 months old- if the pups age matches the shooting season. I just keep the pup on a lead and release it only when drives are finished.

I have done this with labs and spaniels and brittanies and GSP's and the dogs I field trialed with were brought up in this way. All of my field trialing friends and especially the old hands at the game warned me I was going to ruin the pups but when those same pups began to win trials they were forced to admit that doing this worked for me.

My pups were winning trials including Opens in some cases, before they were 18 months old.

I am a very impatient sort of person but I do have a lot of tolerance and it is essential to have that because pups are pups and will often make mistakes or go a bit out of control …..but there is always another time to remedy, gently, the "faults" shown by an exuberant pup.

I value enthusiasm for the job above "perfection" at the job...……… I sort of make haste slowly.

Wullie

[Naj]

I think this topic is reflective of the big cultural difference between the U.K. and other countries where dogs are commonly introduced to game/birds at an early age and are often being shot over around 6 months to a year old, even if only in the context of training. The notion that you get a dog 100% perfect in ‘obedience’ (impossible, they’re not machines) before putting it anywhere near game, when it all suddenly falls apart because they are in emotional melt down, is what leads to people changing their mind and holding off the real thing even longer, simply because, as Reidler says the handler had wound it up by throwing it into a position it couldn’t cope with. It’s also the reason that so much harsh correction is resorted to in desperation by many handlers.

The other oft quoted statement that there’s no need to rush because you’ve got many years of work together ahead of you is just untrue. A dog’s effective working life is short enough as it is without wasting the first two or three years in purdah. And a young dog’s first two or three years are arguably some of the best, when it’s learning fast, full of fire and exuberance. I’d hate to miss out on that. I was out shooting pheasants over my 10 year old GSP yesterday. In the summer I was reflecting upon how many shooting days she had left in her and was relieved to see that she’s still going strong and as deadly as ever at finding game for me. I’m so glad that I shot her first pheasant over her point at 8 months old rather than leaving it a year or two longer and feel I’ve made the best of her short life. How many dogs are retired at 8 years old, or younger, through injury or because they’ve accumulated so many bad habits that they’ve become a liability. And how many don’t reach that age for one sad reason or another!

I think PRH sums it up well about his dog being chilled around game. The reason that handlers and dogs struggle is because of the emotional state of the dog. They try to remedy this through corrective training but this simply suppresses the underlying issue and the emotional state still persists. Work on changing the emotional state and then changing the behaviour becomes easy and the best way of doing this is to get a pup on gamey ground as often as possible, when it is both physically and mentally immature and naive and it’s nose hasn’t yet kicked in so being around game/scent becomes no big deal.

Naj

[CockerCanuck]

I don't think I have owned a dog I did not rough shoot over at under a year of age. Depending on when they were born this may be as early as six months. The only thing I am concerned with is introduction to the gun which I do in a very structured way. Once I am confident they are enthusiastic about the gun I start to take them. They do lots wrong but I beleive the experience they get is invaluable and there is a long off-season to work on obedience and clean up any faults.

In fact from the age of about 4 months to a year I try and take my pups everywhere with me no matter what I am doing. They get exposed to all kinds of things strange people, dogs, livestock, quiet and noisy situations. Some of it is a lot of fun for them, some a bit scary but they learn to deal with it. I am regularly complimented about how calm and relaxed my dogs are. I think this early exposure to lots of stimulus of all kinds has a lot to do with it.

[Naj]

I don't think I have owned a dog I did not rough shoot over at under a year of age. Depending on when they were born this may be as early as six months. The only thing I am concerned with is introduction to the gun which I do in a very structured way. Once I am confident they are enthusiastic about the gun I start to take them. They do lots wrong but I beleive the experience they get is invaluable and there is a long off-season to work on obedience and clean up any faults.

In fact from the age of about 4 months to a year I try and take my pups everywhere with me no matter what I am doing. They get exposed to all kinds of things strange people, dogs, livestock, quiet and noisy situations. Some of it is a lot of fun for them, some a bit scary but they learn to deal with it. I am regularly complimented about how calm and relaxed my dogs are. I think this early exposure to lots of stimulus of all kinds has a lot to do with it.

I agree. The first year, in particular, is a crucial period for a young dog’s development and its worth the extra effort in habituating them to as many life experiences as you can. On the flip side, many dogs in the UK spend much of this early development stuck in a kennel, which is alright if you can get them out and about as much as possible but not so if they’re consigned to a monastic lifestyle for much of the time.

Naj

[reidller]

Thanks for the replies, it's been interesting reading them and cemented my thoughts on getting the next pup out on game ASAP.
Ive read a few times about holding dogs back, and in some cases a lot of the older books advocate not doing much of anything until a year old. As naj said, a dogs life is short enough without it spending its first year or so in a kennel during shooting season.
I was talking to another picker up last week (who is well experienced and has had dogs a long time) about any young dogs he had, and he told me of one in the Kennel he was going to bring picking up this season but has decided o hold back in the hope they'll be good enough for tests next year. I did think at the time it was a waste of a seasons experience, but each to their own.

[Naj]

The only reason they used to not do much of anything until a year old back in the day was because the training regime was so harsh it could easily squash a dog if started too young.

Naj