Acral Mutilation Syndrome Carrier ESS Working Lines

[Judy]

One of the GTF members had to have a Cocker put down a while back so there have been a few definite cases as well as the ones we don't get to hear about or who are misdiagnosed.
Somebody on Farcebook was talking about working their blind Springer, there are some about.

For the record, I agree totally with Liam, now that's really scary...

[Miesque]

I'm a vet so I obviously see/hear of more cases but I know PRA blind working Springers (including a FTCh), I've been in ops putting screws through 4 and 5 siblings in a litter's elbows for IOHC/dysplasia, I've euthanised an AMS dog (rescue, breeding known).

They're out there.

There's no reason to discount health testing OR working ability. My latest (hopeful, bitch is 4 weeks mated) litter is multiple OFTW (unlucky to win both sides of the border!) x FTAW and fully health tested (DNA/Eyes/Hips/Elbows). Best of both worlds.

[EssGrouse]

One of the GTF members had to have a Cocker put down a while back so there have been a few definite cases as well as the ones we don't get to hear about or who are misdiagnosed.
Somebody on Farcebook was talking about working their blind Springer, there are some about.

For the record, I agree totally with Liam, now that's really scary...

Only took thee 5 years

[Judy]

One of the GTF members had to have a Cocker put down a while back so there have been a few definite cases as well as the ones we don't get to hear about or who are misdiagnosed.
Somebody on Farcebook was talking about working their blind Springer, there are some about.

For the record, I agree totally with Liam, now that's really scary...

Only took thee 5 years

Just shows how far you've progressed!

[James]

Thanks for the response Enid. I think you know my uptake on it. For those who don't then here.

Whats most concerning for me and I can agree to a degree about health testing but is those breeders who then after health testing go on to breed with fear. Even if they have a clear bitch they disregard carrier dogs without a second though, even if they compliment their bitch the best. To name a current few, FT Ch Wyndhill Brett of Stagsden, OFTW Bryngwhryd Bruno, FT Ch Hollydrive Kurt, I can name at least 3 more current FT Ch who are also carriers. Yet disregarded by the masses, simply on this basis.

This is where its wrong for me, people who don't have a clue what they are doing as such, just following the trend. We will lose good lines over health testing and where does it stop? When we have that many test that every dog tested will fail at least 1 test? They just keep churning these test out year after year, isnt there 4 types of PRA but yet we only test for 1? Why?

We test eyes, so a dog can pass 5 years in a row, be bred from then fail on the 6th year? Why?

If what has been said true about old dogs for instance, FT Ch Rytex Rod, FT Ch Cheweky Wolf, FT Ch Whitehope Liquorice all being carriers and PRA being such a big thing in Springers, where are all these affect pups because you can bet your bottom dollar from the 646 Litters they sired between them with a total of 3861 puppies, I'm yet to speak to anyone who said they had a blind puppy from them? And also if they were carriers surley they mated carrier bitches within all those matings? Where are these affected pups? No one has ever seen um.

This isn't a rant at you btw, I hope someone who is thinking about breeding reads this and thinks about whats being said here. DO not breed based on health test, yes make an informed choice but don't disregard carrier dogs. I know alot of folk who have still used Kurt and he has produced the goods but i know people who have bred from their carrier bitch to a clear dog, tested all the pups and only kept the clears even though, they wernt looking the best in the litter, WTF, pointless !!

Anyhow rant over, just gets to me all this and people being blinded by health test and ability goes out of the window. Id rather have a class carrier than clear plug.

this is as you know the same as my stance. we health test but the dogs are what we work with first and foremost.

[EssGrouse]

Thanks for the response Enid. I think you know my uptake on it. For those who don't then here.

Whats most concerning for me and I can agree to a degree about health testing but is those breeders who then after health testing go on to breed with fear. Even if they have a clear bitch they disregard carrier dogs without a second though, even if they compliment their bitch the best. To name a current few, FT Ch Wyndhill Brett of Stagsden, OFTW Bryngwhryd Bruno, FT Ch Hollydrive Kurt, I can name at least 3 more current FT Ch who are also carriers. Yet disregarded by the masses, simply on this basis.

This is where its wrong for me, people who don't have a clue what they are doing as such, just following the trend. We will lose good lines over health testing and where does it stop? When we have that many test that every dog tested will fail at least 1 test? They just keep churning these test out year after year, isnt there 4 types of PRA but yet we only test for 1? Why?

We test eyes, so a dog can pass 5 years in a row, be bred from then fail on the 6th year? Why?

If what has been said true about old dogs for instance, FT Ch Rytex Rod, FT Ch Cheweky Wolf, FT Ch Whitehope Liquorice all being carriers and PRA being such a big thing in Springers, where are all these affect pups because you can bet your bottom dollar from the 646 Litters they sired between them with a total of 3861 puppies, I'm yet to speak to anyone who said they had a blind puppy from them? And also if they were carriers surley they mated carrier bitches within all those matings? Where are these affected pups? No one has ever seen um.

This isn't a rant at you btw, I hope someone who is thinking about breeding reads this and thinks about whats being said here. DO not breed based on health test, yes make an informed choice but don't disregard carrier dogs. I know alot of folk who have still used Kurt and he has produced the goods but i know people who have bred from their carrier bitch to a clear dog, tested all the pups and only kept the clears even though, they wernt looking the best in the litter, WTF, pointless !!

Anyhow rant over, just gets to me all this and people being blinded by health test and ability goes out of the window. Id rather have a class carrier than clear plug.

this is as you know the same as my stance. we health test but the dogs are what we work with first and foremost.

It's how it should be mate, that's why you breed good dogs.

[Sgurr]

My comment was:
The first working lines ESS Carrier has been posted in the February 2020 KC DNA test listings - Kingbraggers Sunrise
All the big names of twenty years ago are there, on both sides of the pedigree, Moonreed, Rytex, Kettlestang, Badgercourt, Birdrowe, Toonarmy, Tawnyhill, Rosebay, Megstone, Housty, Sunstar, Sunnybrae, Windmillwood etc. Remember PRA Cord 1 was only in ESS show lines......that's not the situation ten years on....


For those who health test, be aware.

There is no reason why health tested dogs and field proven dogs should be different. It is good to see that the number of ESS with Stud Book numbers and health testing is growing. But I would still maintain than putting a known Carrier to an untested dog/bitch is still irresponsible breeding. OK not all the health tests are recorded on MyKC.org.uk If not, why not? .

[Miesque]

There is no reason why health tested dogs and field proven dogs should be different. It is good to see that the number of ESS with Stud Book numbers and health testing is growing. But I would still maintain than putting a known Carrier to an untested dog/bitch is still irresponsible breeding. OK not all the health tests are recorded on MyKC.org.uk If not, why not? .

For those of us in Ireland it can be dual registered dogs, my black and white dog has full DNA testing (clear) but it was done on his IKC reg so doesn't show on myKC where his eye/hips/elbows do

[James]

My comment was:
The first working lines ESS Carrier has been posted in the February 2020 KC DNA test listings - Kingbraggers Sunrise
All the big names of twenty years ago are there, on both sides of the pedigree, Moonreed, Rytex, Kettlestang, Badgercourt, Birdrowe, Toonarmy, Tawnyhill, Rosebay, Megstone, Housty, Sunstar, Sunnybrae, Windmillwood etc. Remember PRA Cord 1 was only in ESS show lines......that's not the situation ten years on....


For those who health test, be aware.

There is no reason why health tested dogs and field proven dogs should be different. It is good to see that the number of ESS with Stud Book numbers and health testing is growing. But I would still maintain than putting a known Carrier to an untested dog/bitch is still irresponsible breeding. OK not all the health tests are recorded on MyKC.org.uk If not, why not? .

two reasons for me, the first is im paying to test my dogs for my own benefit to help breed dogs how I want not so other people can use them rather than putting their hand in their own pocket the second reason is because the KC are a bunch on lazy gits that do more harm to what decent breeds are left than anyone and I personally wont do anything to help them as they make enough money and chose not use it for the good of dogs but to have posh offices and buy a shit grouse more that nobody else wanted.

[EssGrouse]

I agree, I tested X1 FTCh and x2 FTws last week for a friend, used their pet names. The owner isn't arsed about telling the kennel club but if anyone ask he can tell the people interested.

I know of x4 health tested FTCh springers that arnt on the kennel club, they arnt the be all and end all. As long as owners know that's all that matters ain't it, they are their dogs.