Whats happened to this forum?

[newf]

He is way too harsh for modern dogs, swinging dogs round by the ears for moving on a 'stay'? Look at the dogs' body language before extolling his virtues, they don't look too happy to me. Mind you neither did that female Dove when the male started posturing on next-doors roof - its all about reading the behaviour doncha know?

I've viewed a good hundred or more of his videos and have seen plenty of happy dogs. I've even noticed that he is very game to chastise a dog's owner for bad timing of punishment and/or quickly resorting to it when other measures were warranted. As to a dog's body language a dog can exhibit highs and lows within mere seconds and it is not necessarily a sign that a dog will stop a undesired behavior or is in anyway cowed or ruined. Imagined harm is the bane of 'modern' dog training.

The title of this thread is appropriately named. If one cannot objectively talk about punishment and reward in dog training with no bias for one or the other then I see the forum punishing itself.

[westcountry]

He is way too harsh for modern dogs, swinging dogs round by the ears for moving on a 'stay'? Look at the dogs' body language before extolling his virtues, they don't look too happy to me. Mind you neither did that female Dove when the male started posturing on next-doors roof - its all about reading the behaviour doncha know?

For once Judy we will agree on Mr Upton. However we cant say too much . Just suffice to say ,I like to train a different way and so do many others these days and still get results.

[westcountry]

He is way too harsh for modern dogs, swinging dogs round by the ears for moving on a 'stay'? Look at the dogs' body language before extolling his virtues, they don't look too happy to me. Mind you neither did that female Dove when the male started posturing on next-doors roof - its all about reading the behaviour doncha know?

I've viewed a good hundred or more of his videos and have seen plenty of happy dogs. I've even noticed that he is very game to chastise a dog's owner for bad timing of punishment and/or quickly resorting to it when other measures were warranted. As to a dog's body language a dog can exhibit highs and lows within mere seconds and it is not necessarily a sign that a dog will stop a undesired behavior or is in anyway cowed or ruined. Imagined harm is the bane of 'modern' dog training.

The title of this thread is appropriately named. If one cannot objectively talk about punishment and reward in dog training with no bias for one or the other then I see the forum punishing itself.

Why the need of punishment? Most modern trialing bred springers are so soft that punishing a dog will set you back weeks. A stern voice command is all that is required even if it has to be repeated. I have had several trial awards with a little bitch that would have crumbled if you punished her. I have a very soft dog that is exactly the same. I never even need to growl at him. If you need to physically punish a dog then you havent taught it very well. I have trained a lot with Andy Cullen and he is a great balanced trainer that never physically punishes a dog, yet gets what he asks for. Physical punishment went out with the dark ages.

[newf]

Principles of behavior don't change. And yes, punishment does not have to be physical but if it fails to stop something undesired, then it is of no use. And from the little I know, rewarding a behavior even consistently will not rid a dog of a behavior you don't want; it remains there waiting to come out.

As to the need for punishment, well, I guess there is no real need but one can disregard reality and the principles that arise from it in how learning happens and it's maintenance thereafter. Everything we ourselves have learnt up to this point in our lives is based on successes and failures. If it was all reward, we would have no clue on what would happen if we stepped outside the path. That would be incomplete learning for both man and dog. In some cases it maybe trivial, while in others it could be detrimental.

However, I'm not wishing to convince anyone on how to train a dog. To each is own, if love and affection coupled with a treat bag does it for you, then good. My thoughts and understandings still have me enjoying my dogs and they, in turn, enjoying me. If it wasn't that way, I would not own a dog.

[JCL]

I did write the word 'contraversial' after my brief mention of Chris Upton

[Cambusvale]

Training a dog depends on many things but most of important is reading the dog you have in front of you. The methods to obtain a trained dog are multiple and each dog needs to be read then trained accordingly. Temperaments of each dog are like the methods and vary accordingly. The breeding now a days has went for the more softer type and training has been changed to suit. In some lines, breeds or individual you still have that stubborn and challenging behavior that softer methods would struggle with. To judge a persons training you must first judge the dog that is being trained. Without observing both the dog and trainer interaction in real life I would refrain from judgement. Correction be it by collar or physical is for each person to determine taking into account current laws,etc. Physical punishment is a tool that can ruin a dog but it can also save a dog, it is all down to the problem or the handlers timing.

For myself I do not wish to judge others but only judge results of the finished dog. If you as a handler used little thinking or were soft letting them do what they want or utilized punishment solely, it shows in the finished dog. All are as bad as each other in my book as the training has failed and the partnership has failed so not delivering the finished needs of a gundog. We see them frequently in the field and the virtues of methods that failed are stated as how well they went, how blinkered is that.

Modern or old methods, I fail to see this, I developed my own way of training and I did not think it was old or new as I dropped or adapted over the years. I kept what worked and developed parts to meet my needs or particular problem. If it does not work I don't do it, how simple is that.

[munstyman]

Great post Ally

Chris Upton is a good gundog trainer. His training principles are based on keen observation of dogs and their actual behavior and not slanted rhetoric. However, with that being said, I'm not a fan of his temperament, personality or politics; but that has nothing to do with his dog skills.

On this part we will have to agree to disagree, newf. I've seen far worse trainers on both sides of the positive training divide than Mr Upton, in public and in private . Whilst I still consider his methods some what of my past and I would rarely opt for them so quickly, I have no problem with those that use them.... just not on a dog of mine
My problem is not with his knowledge of gundog training but in the `reading' of the dog, I'm afraid I just do not read them the same. Whilst in the past I took a similar interpretation, I have taken a different approach to what I see and understand from the dogs behaviour today, and its been far more accurate and therefore given better results in MY opinion ( Or at the very least a learning partnership I am far more comfortable with )
I've said time and time again, communication is the key to good training results, sometimes a dog will not pick up what you are asking from it as quick as others. Blaming a dog for being `stupid' or `stubborn' or `trying it on' because you've failed to adjust the method of communication to a more appropriate level that the dog in front of you is able to absorb. Shows that the intelligent one of the partnership maybe not as intelligent as they think they are, and have not expanded as much on their own experience as they should

[Naj]

Great post Ally

Chris Upton is a good gundog trainer. His training principles are based on keen observation of dogs and their actual behavior and not slanted rhetoric. However, with that being said, I'm not a fan of his temperament, personality or politics; but that has nothing to do with his dog skills.

On this part we will have to agree to disagree, newf. I've seen far worse trainers on both sides of the positive training divide than Mr Upton, in public and in private . Whilst I still consider his methods some what of my past and I would rarely opt for them so quickly, I have no problem with those that use them.... just not on a dog of mine
My problem is not with his knowledge of gundog training but in the `reading' of the dog, I'm afraid I just do not read them the same. Whilst in the past I took a similar interpretation, I have taken a different approach to what I see and understand from the dogs behaviour today, and its been far more accurate and therefore given better results in MY opinion ( Or at the very least a learning partnership I am far more comfortable with )
I've said time and time again, communication is the key to good training results, sometimes a dog will not pick up what you are asking from it as quick as others. Blaming a dog for being `stupid' or `stubborn' or `trying it on' because you've failed to adjust the method of communication to a more appropriate level that the dog in front of you is able to absorb. Shows that the intelligent one of the partnership maybe not as intelligent as they think they are, and have not expanded as much on their own experience as they should

Now that is a great post.

[westcountry]

Good points Munsty.

[CockerCanuck]

The topic of "positive" vs. "corrective" training comes up very often on this forum. In general I think its a good thing because it leads to a more detailed description of how you each train which I find useful. However sometimes it seems to lead to some sounding judgmental and others insulted. I think it would be a very interesting experiment if we could all have a training session together. Of course we would need some sort of Star Trek transporter or virtual reality machine to accomplish this. However, it is my belief that if we actually got to see each other train under real life conditions we probably all train much more alike than the language in some posts would suggest. I am willing to bet that if I watched even the most "positive" of trainers work I could identify things that would prompt me to say "wait a minute wasn't that a correction" and I bet others might be surprised how positive my training sessions are. I think we are all somewhere on the scale of "balanced". I have been around training dogs long enough to have started out when the training proscribed by most "experts", certainly the ones who wrote books was much harsher than we use today but even those rough old guys used praise when the dog performed well. If they didn't I doubt they would ever succeed. I doubt it is possible to train a gun dog with correction only, as I doubt it is possible with praise and treats only.

While I am trapped here self isolating I am lucky to own some acreage around my home so I have been amusing myself and the dogs by doing some new training with them. (It is doubtful if I will ever find a practical use for it but it gives us something for us to do together, perhaps I will post about it elsewhere). In any case because it is new to them I have been using more "correction" than I generally do to get them started the right direction. This correction takes the form of a rough guttural "Hey" accompanied by a change in posture from relaxed to more alert. This is all it takes to get them to stop the unwanted behaviour. It is certainly correction, I would not be surprised if they still have a memory of being scruffed as youngsters for bad behaviour accompanied by the same voice and posture. However especially in the case of the Cocker it has been years since he has actually been scruffed. If you were watching me 90% of what you would see is praise and very happy dogs. They are happy because they are picking up these new skills quickly. They are happy to please me and love to succeed and I beleive a balanced approach is the quickest and easiest way to help them do that.