Future breeding for springers

[Aperson]

I may have put this thread in the wrong group, apologies, new to this forum
Looking at pedigrees of the modern springer spaniel. You can’t help but see an over reliance on two prominent sires
Clarburgh Art and Helmsway Heath.
Yes I know that Heath won the championships.

But my question(s)
Where does the future of the breed stand with such a breeding bottle neck?
Are there sire(s) out there that haven’t been used that could bring in new blood to improve the gene pool going forward?
Or is the breed going to struggle going forward?
Do people look to much at red ink on a pedigree rather than looking for a sire to improve what they already have?

[Nickheref]

I think people are far too concerned with red ink rather than looking at bloodlines. When using a stud you are not acquiring his training but his DNA and hopefully the ability that brings together with any potential problems whether health or temperament issues.
I personally think Art was far, far too overused and did the breed harm, he produced a lot of very poor dogs as well as good ones but they are forgotten (but not if you had one!!!!!!). There are many good potential studs out there who have won nothing as they haven't been trialled but you have to go and find them. As the American professional trainer Todd Agnew said "The best dog in the country probably never ran in a trial" but using an unknown dog doesn't help sell pups or make a pedigree look interesting to the average buyer.

People who want hunting dogs with natural ability appear to be looking to Ireland but not everyone actually wants a hunting dog any more as they can be too much dog for the circumstances in which they are using them in even in trials. A bit of overenthusiasm may get you put out of a trial despite some very good work earlier in the run.

I cannot comment on Helmsway Heath as I haven't handled or seen any of his pups in the flesh.

[WGD]

Can't disagree with any of that; I don't think the problem relates to any particular dog, rather it is the result of a very small pool of dogs and bitch lines being trialled and therefore sought after. Even the trialling community is scratching it's head as to where to go for their next stud dog. Natural ability might have to come from the beating line...

[Nickheref]

Can't disagree with any of that; I don't think the problem relates to any particular dog, rather it is the result of a very small pool of dogs and bitch lines being trialled and therefore sought after. Even the trialling community is scratching it's head as to where to go for their next stud dog. Natural ability might have to come from the beating line...

That is why in some ways I think natural aptitude tests at 6 or 12 or 18 months would be of real benefit to all breeds. Almost anyone could put their dog forward, the handling/training is not being judged just the dogs desire and ability to do the job, no need to campaign a dog through the trial circuit which is expensive and time consuming, although that would still be an option for those that wished to do so, but knowledge that the dog even if out of control or ruined due to awful training at 5 years old showed a lot of promise as a pup but ended up in the wrong hands.
The best marking springer I have ever seen was a useless gundog but that was down to her owners inability to train not lack of ability in the dog.

If it was relatively easy and cheap to do it would quickly weed out those who had crap dogs but bigged them up, pups out of a bitch whose owner couldn't be bothered to go for natural aptitude test put to a famous ftch might not be so appealing to some. Mind you how many adverts only tell you that the dam is a great house dog and lovely with children - no mention of any working ability etc but the pups are still sold as great working dogs so perhaps it wouldn't make any difference.

[Nickheref]

Just another thought, to me natural aptitude is as important as health testing, a healthy dog who lives to 16 but never does a decent days work is nearly as irritating as a good dog whose career is cut short. Maybe not on the moral view but in terms of work.

[munstyman]

Amen. Lol . Music to my ears Nick. I've always considered breeding based on competition to converge bloodlines whilst NA to diverge bloodlines .... but what do I know?

[Aperson]

Can't disagree with any of that; I don't think the problem relates to any particular dog, rather it is the result of a very small pool of dogs and bitch lines being trialled and therefore sought after. Even the trialling community is scratching it's head as to where to go for their next stud dog. Natural ability might have to come from the beating line...

Why would you breed away from natural ability?? The mind boggles at the thought of that and such a waste. Nothing is more pleasing than watching a dog know how to use its nose and natural ability when finding game.

[Aperson]

Can't disagree with any of that; I don't think the problem relates to any particular dog, rather it is the result of a very small pool of dogs and bitch lines being trialled and therefore sought after. Even the trialling community is scratching it's head as to where to go for their next stud dog. Natural ability might have to come from the beating line...

That is why in some ways I think natural aptitude tests at 6 or 12 or 18 months would be of real benefit to all breeds. Almost anyone could put their dog forward, the handling/training is not being judged just the dogs desire and ability to do the job, no need to campaign a dog through the trial circuit which is expensive and time consuming, although that would still be an option for those that wished to do so, but knowledge that the dog even if out of control or ruined due to awful training at 5 years old showed a lot of promise as a pup but ended up in the wrong hands.
The best marking springer I have ever seen was a useless gundog but that was down to her owners inability to train not lack of ability in the dog.

If it was relatively easy and cheap to do it would quickly weed out those who had crap dogs but bigged them up, pups out of a bitch whose owner couldn't be bothered to go for natural aptitude test put to a famous ftch might not be so appealing to some. Mind you how many adverts only tell you that the dam is a great house dog and lovely with children - no mention of any working ability etc but the pups are still sold as great working dogs so perhaps it wouldn't make any difference.

Don’t get me started on adverts not interested in what they write. Want to know the nitty gritty as it where

[Naj]

I was last in springers throughout the 70s & 80s so have lost touch with modern bloodlines but when I see so many videos of pups spinning around like headless chickens and their handlers saying what fantastic hunters they are I rather think that modern breeding practices haven’t done the breed any favours, especially with the unprecedented incidence of joint and ligament problems we’re seeing in the breed these days. When so many folk respond favourably I’m never sure if they’re just being kind or genuine!

Naj

[Judy]

Not just Springers, look at Cocker lines too and Flatcoats, people are stupid when it comes to breeding and popular sires. I wish the KC would bring in a rule re the number of times a dog can be used at stud, might make stud dog owners think carefully about the bitches instead of taking the money and running.