It's all about the training!

[crackerd]

Thank you ips. Worms are insideous.
If I had built my livelihood on being an accredited 'The Gundog Club' trainer and the accreditation rules had changed to include the meaning of 'aversives' as 'anything the dog doesn't like' I would be upset. Some trainers have chosen to leave the accreditation scheme.

One of the likely aversives suggested is 'staring' (at the dog). My puppy often stares at me. I thought this was a good thing. She even winks, as in closes one eye, sometimes. I have no idea how to interpret that, maybe something irritating it?
I don't know whether she would like a good bollocking or not. Some athletes pay their coaches to provide words of encouragement, which could be similarly interpreted. My puppy is an athlete. Yesterday she jumped straight up onto the garden table. No climbing on chairs. Not even a run up, just crouch and up. I lifted her off. Not sure she liked that.

"Anything the dog doesn't like" is imo taking things to the literal extreme and I would think impossible to abide by in the real world of a shoot day however I applaud the attempt and the mindset

While we're all in favour of training gundogs to be useful shooting companions, knowing our man ips and his affinity for "vintage vinyl," methinks what he's really trying to say is, The Gundog Club may soon announce retroactively a theme song that fits their MO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfSBf_4iafc

MG

[munstyman]

Ah Judy does love a good can of worms
There are many ways to train a gundog and it seems it is not immune from the modern day society flaw of those wishing to be recognised as the new, and only guru of truth. Sadly you can quickly become tarred with being in one camp or another and `nare the two will meet'.
I've said before, many times there are many ways to `successfully ' train a good gundog, so the choice is really down to what the trainer is both comfortable with, and capable of implementing. The key as always being the communication between trainer and dog and getting an understanding between the two of what is being asked and what is needed to be done.
I grew up with the ye olde methods, so know how to use them, and do not make a big thing about NOT using them if I feel it is what a particular dog needs to get it back on the right path within a time frame. ( Usually in the case of positives being used badly ) I have no problem with the proper use of ECs either, I can see how it works for the dog and in the bigger picture. I have one but never used it for no other reason than I've not had a dog that needed its use ... except trying it out on me.
Having said that I have moved well into what is considered by others,the `positive' camp ( Although I still think it's pretty central ) as now it works better for me. Again I understand how it works, and if I am honest, I rather like the challenge it gives me, as if training Munsters was not challenging enough

The Gundog Club will now only acredit trainers who do not use aversives. In their literature, aversives are defined as 'anything the dog does not like.' Some general examples of likely aversives (such as hitting and growling) are provided.
Irrespective of anyone's view on modern 'force free' versus other 'traditional' training methods, is this definition of aversives workable?

Is it workable? For most I would say not, taking it literally. For a few with excellent canine communication you could be successful using silent body language ... but then some would say even that was `aversive' Sometimes a dog needs a negative reference point to learn from going forward. And I would argue that it may be better coming from the trainer, in a controlled manner and environment, than a consequence of real life
But where I do fall out with The Gundog Club is simply in putting that type of qualification you are removing tools from a trainers arsenal, and anyone with experience knows that a one size fits all pre condition to training is sooner or later going to fail.
The only time I get a little riled with others using aversives, is when the dog simply does not understand what it is being asked. Often this boils down, or should that be boils over, out of the frustration of the trainer to `communicate' with the dog what is required. If this goes beyond an aversive posture or verbal reprimand to physical correction, it is in my view physical abuse, as the dog is just confused not deliberately disobeying.
As always with any `accreditation', it boils down to how it is administrated and policed. There will be bad trainers who manipulate the accreditation process, and good trainers that simply don't bother getting the accreditation. You pays your money and you take your choice, just expect to pay more for an accredited trainer
On the lighter side, the holier than thou positive evangelicals never address the dogs use of aversives on us mere owners and trainers .
The language coming out of my own dogs eyes on occasions could make even Judy blush The times you miss a bird from the dogs point and flush, you get the REALLY! followed by some inaudible German mutterings. Where's the counseling for us poor trainers?

[ips]

Thank you ips. Worms are insideous.
If I had built my livelihood on being an accredited 'The Gundog Club' trainer and the accreditation rules had changed to include the meaning of 'aversives' as 'anything the dog doesn't like' I would be upset. Some trainers have chosen to leave the accreditation scheme.

One of the likely aversives suggested is 'staring' (at the dog). My puppy often stares at me. I thought this was a good thing. She even winks, as in closes one eye, sometimes. I have no idea how to interpret that, maybe something irritating it?
I don't know whether she would like a good bollocking or not. Some athletes pay their coaches to provide words of encouragement, which could be similarly interpreted. My puppy is an athlete. Yesterday she jumped straight up onto the garden table. No climbing on chairs. Not even a run up, just crouch and up. I lifted her off. Not sure she liked that.

"Anything the dog doesn't like" is imo taking things to the literal extreme and I would think impossible to abide by in the real world of a shoot day however I applaud the attempt and the mindset

While we're all in favour of training gundogs to be useful shooting companions, knowing our man ips and his affinity for "vintage vinyl," methinks what he's really trying to say is, The Gundog Club may soon announce retroactively a theme song that fits their MO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfSBf_4iafc

MG

Lol

[Kibble]

What lovely replies. Thank you.
Nice to think that the new vinyl trend can run alongside that old digital stuff.
Today was the first time I realised my puppy was growing up quickly, maybe even too quickly.
I hardly get to drop a seek back retrieve now without her spotting it. Today, she brought back her retrieves with minimal flybys and even walked on a loose lead (no figure of eight) for a while, at least until she sniffed a dead baby bunny and gave my arm a serious aversive. She gave up the bunny nicely and I even considered collecting it to make a furry dummy. That's how far I have come.
Must remember to get some more worm prevention medicine.

[ips]

What lovely replies. Thank you.
Nice to think that the new vinyl trend can run alongside that old digital stuff.
Today was the first time I realised my puppy was growing up quickly, maybe even too quickly.
I hardly get to drop a seek back retrieve now without her spotting it. Today, she brought back her retrieves with minimal flybys and even walked on a loose lead (no figure of eight) for a while, at least until she sniffed a dead baby bunny and gave my arm a serious aversive. She gave up the bunny nicely and I even considered collecting it to make a furry dummy. That's how far I have come.
Must remember to get some more worm prevention medicine.

Coming on well by sound of it

[crackerd]

What lovely replies. Thank you.
Nice to think that the new vinyl trend can run alongside that old digital stuff.
Today was the first time I realised my puppy was growing up quickly, maybe even too quickly.
I hardly get to drop a seek back retrieve now without her spotting it. Today, she brought back her retrieves with minimal flybys and even walked on a loose lead (no figure of eight) for a while, at least until she sniffed a dead baby bunny and gave my arm a serious aversive. She gave up the bunny nicely and I even considered collecting it to make a furry dummy. That's how far I have come.
Must remember to get some more worm prevention medicine.

Coming on well by sound of it

Indeed, Ian. And if Kibble gets them flybys into a more synchronized (and collaborative) flight pattern whilst at speed, it can be a thing of beauty rivaling a glam footie bicycle goal.

MG

[Naj]

Thank you Newf, Munstyman, Nickheref, CockerCanuck and Crackered for your expert, considered and encouraging replies. I find forum threads very helpul, especially with encouraging me to become more confident in reading my puppy, thinking how best I can train her, and in not getting too stressed about my inevitable errors. It's great that people with gundog training experience are prepared to share their stories of individual dogs and the training approaches they have used. I take the view that if I want to read I should contribute, however limited my puppy training experience. I have question about The Gundog Club.

The Gundog Club' is a UK based organisation (charity) with almost nationwide coverage across England. It provides accreditation for trainers (who run gundog training classes), training manuals and staged assessments. This organisation therefore has the potential for greater gundog training influence, albeit mostly pet gundogs for now, than any one individual trainer alone. Should this be a concern?

The stage one training manual is very prescriptive, even formulaic. I found it daunting and the approach pedantic. I am relieved that this forum has stories of more relaxed, varied and creative approaches to gundog training. I understand the need for basic obedience, but maybe there are different ways to achieve this and working with a puppy's natural ability and desire, in the first instance, seems like a good idea.
The Gundog Club will now only acredit trainers who do not use aversives. In their literature, aversives are defined as 'anything the dog does not like.' Some general examples of likely aversives (such as hitting and growling) are provided.
Irrespective of anyone's view on modern 'force free' versus other 'traditional' training methods, is this definition of aversives workable?
I think the Gundog Club definition is problematic, not to say daft. First I need to know what my puppy does not like and then avoid it. To start with she didn't like her (clip on) lead. She still hates being ignored.
Does a workable definition of 'aversives' in the context of gundog training matter? Is there a good definition of aversives or even of 'force free'?

With just a nod to MG and his penchant for bestowing unsolicited soubriquets on others, and in an effort to clarify the murk surrounding terminology, the Gundog Club, nor any other club or individual, doesn’t have any copyright on accepted training terminology. They are simply using industry standard wording. By definition, an aversive stimulus is something that a dog (person or any other animal, for that matter) would wish to escape or avoid. It’s that simple no matter whether you’re training a gundog, pet dog, sheep dog or any other dog or animal. It’s just part and parcel of the science of behaviour modification. Whether you want to learn the science behind what you are training is entirely up to the individual. Many have little to no interest in behavioural science and successfully train their dogs.

What you might find confusing about ‘aversives’ is that the dog has the final word on what is aversive and what is not. So you might think that a hard intimidating glare might be aversive but your dog might not. If what you’re doing to correct an unwanted behaviour isn’t leading to behaviour change then what you’re doing isn’t aversive from the dogs perspective. If it associated the aversive/correction with a specific behaviour then it would lead to a change in that behaviour, but that necessitates that you have the skill to communicate that association between aversive and unwanted behaviour, which isn’t as easy as is often made out. You can see that with your clip on lead. We’ve all made these mistakes so I’m not picking on you but your dog’s response to it has been inadvertently trained by you. Somehow you’ve turned it into a negative experience to be escaped from and/or avoided, hence, it’s become aversive to the dog. If you turned the sight of the lead into a pleasurable experience then the dog’s response to the lead would change to a positive and welcoming one. On the other hand, being ignored can be a potent negative punisher for a social creature such as a dog so this is sometimes used in the form of time-outs.

I don’t think there is any firm definition of Force Free, it’s more of a philosophy based around teaching animals without pain, intimidation, threats, force or coercion, which I think is pretty laudable. But as with all training methodologies you get extremes of views at both ends with most falling somewhere in the middle. I can’t speak for the Gundog Club but it does provide a structured training plan based on Force Free for those who want that sort of thing. She may have changed by now but the Founder of the Club didn’t hide the fact that she wasn’t entirely force free when she started it. Nowadays you see a cross section of trainers within the community, some who try to use no aversives whatsoever in their training, others who accept a few ‘verbals’ but nothing physical, and the rest, cross over trainers trying to reduce the use of aversives in their training and that, I think, is where things are generally heading.

Like everyone starting out, Kibble, you need to decide what methodology suits you and be guided accordingly. Don’t kid yourself that this or that doesn’t work, just because you can’t get it to work, because there are others who can. Like MunstyM I started out using corrections (there were no other options back then) and was very effective with them, but now I prefer to train without them. I hunt two or three times a week throughout the season, do all my training and exercising off leash on game holding ground and manage perfectly well without corrections.

Naj

[ips]

Great post naj

[CockerCanuck]

This has turned out to be a very enjoyable thread. Kibble thank you for keeping it going. It is nice to hear of someone making real progress with their pup and it has generated great discussion.

I think of myself as a "balanced" trainer but have certainly been tipping more toward the positive side of the scale over many years and many dogs. I hesitate to bring up politics in these divided times, you may have seen the news of political division in this country recently. However, I think there is a lesson in the challenges that a global pandemic have placed on leadership. I have admired the responses of very few of our leaders. Some of these are from the left of our political spectrum and some are from the right. What they share is they are not ideologues. Ideologues feel they need stick to some political formula even when presented with ample evidence it is not working. Intelligent leaders are pragmatists who evolve their positions based on evidence of success. Dog training is no different, keep your options open and observe carefully what is working with the dog in front of you and adapt to succeed.

Too many books and "professionals" intimidate new trainers by making the job sound very complex, perhaps to elevate themselves in others eyes because they know all the "secrets". I am reminded of an anecdote from my youth when horses were much more a focus of my life than dogs. I knew and old cowboy who had a great reputation for his ability to deal with really difficult horses. I asked him if he could share a few of his "secrets" with me. He chuckled and told me "there are no secrets, horses are simple animals and they are lazy. All you need to do is make the right choice really easy and the wrong choice really difficult." Now dogs are not horses, they are much easier to train and more willing to please us but I think there is a lesson in the simplicity of his approach.

[crackerd]

Great post naj

Yes, verily (unsolicited "Yes, verily" ) - and CC's as well.

MG