New places/new smells and running off

[FKC]

Hello,
Thanks for reading. I'm after a bit of advice and perhaps a morale boost...I've an 18mth old working springer who I've had since a pup. When I got her I didn't have much of grasp on dog training (I know, and I got a working springer) but the past 8mths or so I have knuckled down, been to see a reputable gun dog trainer and have really put in the time and effort. I use a whistle and she's very good at recalling, stopping when blow stop whistle and ok (needs improvement to sharpen her up) at the turn whistle. I should point out that she is 100% pet. We don't go for your traditional dog walk instead it's all about going out for short periods, practising the above and getting her to search/retrieve a ball or dummy. The trainer was pretty happy with her and suggested going to more "exciting" places for short periods. I suspect I've gotten a bit enthusiastic - ideally I would love for her to come running/hill walking with me - and we've been to the park/some woods/farmland. Most of the time she's been great but I think I have let her go too far ahead and she's possibly got the bit between her teeth now. In the past few weeks she's run after two birds, hare and a deer all of which I didn't see until they started running/flying.

What am I doing wrong? When she's run after them I've run after her and let her know that she's in the wrong. She almost gets this "red mist" and is just oblivious to anything and just yapping with excitement. Obviously can't have many more of these f*** ups. Any suggestions? I've been getting upset and frustrated as the difference between her at the beginning of the year and now is fantastic and now just feel we're sliding backwards.

Thanks in advance.

[Nickheref]

There is a big difference between the stop being good enough in a place without temptation or distraction and proved so that it works in the presence of game. So the answer may be you need to proof the stop, without trying to sound unkind one issue may be that you are too late on the stop whistle as you didn't see the signs that the dog had found game or was heating up on scent until the chase was in full flow.
Up until 10 years ago I would have ignored the red mist comment and just said your training wasn't completed but I have had a dog who was similar, extremely attentive until not so and then just away without any response to me at all, I still have not decided whether this was due to breeding or an incident when I inadvertently gave the dog the wrong message when young. (I actually think it a bit of both with the breeding playing a major part).
The dog, if it has a brain (hence my comment on some bloodlines), usually quickly realises it cannot catch birds or deer and will stop the chase fairly quickly, hares are another matter. If you can read the dog you will see when it has picked up scent and that is the time to check how good your stop whistle is, as the dog will be motivated but not as much as when game is in view. Possibly walk an area off first before you take your dog onto it, many experienced trainers hunt a piece of ground with a fully trained dog to clear it of game (but leaving scent) before taking the young dog onto the same area to prevent chases but see how the dog reacts to the whistle etc when on scent.

How long did the chase last and what was the intensity? Unless you are a supreme athlete that the Olympic Committee should be signing up pronto , actually running after an 18 month old springer in full chase mode and stopping it in the act in cover or open ground is an impossibility and if a young dog takes off on me I do not react once I know it isn't listening, as all the shouting or whistle blowing in the world isn't going to stop it and just reinforces to the dog that stopping to the whistle, recall etc is optional and can be ignored. I move in the opposite direction and make myself difficult to find. Once the chase is over the dog will be looking for you and will or hopefully will become concerned that it cannot find you. Then having let the dog panic for a short time I call it in (ie let it know where I am) and reward the positive recall. This however requires nerves as you will think the dog will keep going forever and you must be on ground nowhere near busy roads. Chasing after it merely means you are joining in the fun and the dog doesn't have to worry about you as it knows where you are, it can hear you.

I suggest you find somewhere with birds (pigeons in the park?) or find someone with a rabbit pen and work on the issues there in a more controlled environment possibly on a long line.

[munstyman]

I think there is a mis-communication with your trainer, who was probably telling you you need to continue to `proof' your current training in more tempting environments rather than just get the dog into more tempting environments This is usually done in very small steps for a novice trainer and you need to be even more on the dog than before till you build up the understanding of the commands that are non negotiable. ( One step forward, two steps back or make haste slowly are often terms used in this scenario )
The dog, if working bred will be following its pre-programming and following these instincts ( Finding game ). Training you either need to obedience train around these instincts or learn to work with them, your choice of course but naturally on here I'm going to push for the latter, as I think it is more rewarding in the long term for both you and the dog.
I would always caution rebuking the dog after the fact as the key to it having the desired effect very much relies on the timing and if the dog ( not you ) makes that connection. The better option is always to prevent the wrong doing in the fist place and reward THAT behavior. This will of course mean you have to be more aware of the environment and what the dog is indicating by reading the dogs changes in behavior to prevent the dog making the `wrong' decision on its own( This is why I think `gundog training' is, whilst more challenging for a novice, more rewarding in the long term, as you have to learn a wider view of what is going on around you as well as learn to read your dog )
It is easy for many of us oldies to forget the frustration most of us get at some time or other training dogs. In hindsight we know if you put the work in you will get there in the end but sometimes it will be difficult to see the light at the end of the tunnel. However if all life was easy it would get boring very quickly and you would end up not achieving anything of consequence in that life. Dogs are great life teachers, and always point to good things and want to take you along with them. The question is do you want to follow?
Talk to your trainer and be honest about what your finding difficult, they see you and your dog first hand, here on a forum we are dealing with the written word. Whilst collective wisdom may have benefits it can often pull you in several different directions at once and get even more confusing.
It can feel daunting and sometimes feel that your the only one that has difficulty training your dog. Believe me, everyone on here will have at sometime felt exactly the same way. Some of us with HPRs feel that way all the time, we have the tee shirt , the sweat shirt, the jacket and the over coat and a thick skin to prove it Your not alone, just do a search on here for stop whistle and I'm sure you will find good company
A deep breath, some alcohol and tomorrow is another day, it may be a step forward or it may be two steps back, but it will still be progress ... enjoy

[Naj]

I’d agree with MunstyM about the trials and tribulations that we all experience but I’d suggest that you’ve made a fundamental mistake (a common one for many pet gundog owners) in that you’re not training for the purposes for which you want the dog. You want to go running and hiking with the dog but you’re training for gundog work when you should be concentrating on developing its social walking/running skills.

The problem with traditional gundog training is that it’s all control and command based, which is fine when you only go out for short, concentrated training sessions but very taxing when you want to go out for long hikes and the dogs good behaviour, or lack of it, is totally dependent on you concentrating on micro managing it while you’re trying to relax and enjoy the hike. Put another way, gundog training is about control of a dog whose focus is essentially outwards towards the environment, whereas you need a dog that can self manage itself in distracting situations so it looks inwards to you. I’d suggest you get a good pet trainer who can put you on the right lines for hiking and running with your dog. I’d also add that effective management is a huge factor in helping stop your dog from rehearsing unwanted behaviours in these formative early months, so the leash is your best friend, as they say. Don’t be afraid to use it, before your dog gets out of its depth rather than …. Oops, it’s too late!

Naj

[Cass]

In the past few weeks she's run after two birds, hare and a deer all of which I didn't see until they started running/flying.

What am I doing wrong?

Nothing. You're experiencing a young hunting dog... hunting.

[FKC]

Hello,
Thanks so much for all the replies and for the kind words - it made me feel so much better! I had been thinking I'd be better off with a Chihuahua..I hate Chihuahuas...!
When she's run off it's been for a minute or two before she either comes back/I find her. I've just heard horror stories of dogs disappearing for hours so want to make sure nip things in the bud before she gets any more independent.
I should have said that recall/stop whistle excellent on playing fields but like you all said there are minimal distractions here so I do need to really work on proofing these. I think I let enthusiasm get the better of me and went too far too soon! A step back is required I think. I'm due to go see the trainer again soon.
I have started doing very short runs with her but injury (mine, not hers!) has stopped this temporarily. Like most spaniels heelwork could improve so I do need to work on this. Also ways of keeping her close and not letting her stray too far - tricky as with a few bounds she's already on the edge of where I want her.
I'm curious - and this may be a stupid question, I am new to this - but what could a pet trainer offer that would differ to a gundog trainer? Granted I don't intend to work the dog but I would have thought that gun dog trainers have a better insight into how spaniel minds and therefore would have better input into how to manage them?

Thanks again

[Nickheref]

I think Naj's point is that a gundog trainer wants the hunting whereas that is not important or needed by you, so for us it is always a balance of keeping hunting drive with control and we cannot really get in the mindset of not wanting the dog to hunt as that is its reason for being and ours for owning it!
Springers are extremely adaptable, just look at all the other jobs they do such a drugs etc - no one uses a chihuahua!!

Keep going I am sure you will get there.

[munstyman]

I'm curious - and this may be a stupid question, I am new to this - but what could a pet trainer offer that would differ to a gundog trainer? Granted I don't intend to work the dog but I would have thought that gun dog trainers have a better insight into how spaniel minds and therefore would have better input into how to manage them?

Thanks again

The old saying of there is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people that don't ask them is apt here on a training forum.
Gundog training is about training a dog for the purpose of using the dog to work in the shooting world/countryside. You've already said that is not your intention so I think what Naj was saying was you may be taking the wrong route as you will be training in a way that exposes the dog to all those instincts and abilities that will be attractive to the dog and a distraction from you and your intended purpose. You therefore have to understand the dog and the environment with much more emphasis on those aspects rather than have the dog ` obedience ' trained to do the things that you intend to do with it.
Having said that ( remember I am bias ) There should not be any difference with the early basic training and proofing from any trainer, gun dog or pet. There of course will be good and bad trainers in both areas, and trainers you will like and others you just won't connect with. There is also the question of the methods that some use which may conflict with how you wish to train. You have indicated your happy with your current trainer so I would not see any reason to change as you can talk to them of your training objectives and stop after the basics. Remember however you might be inadvertently training all those natural instincts in the dog, which then need to be controlled, and the trainer may be biased as well
The other difference is that a pet trainer may fail you and your dog if the dog proves to be very `driven' and use that as an excuse when they can't get success. It is of course true that a gun dog trainer can use the same excuse with the onus on you as the handler not putting in the correct amount of work. I take the view it is easier to push a handler to step up to the task, than a dog to pull back from a natural instinct, and I'm all for an easier life. After all it's the trainee that has to do the extra work.
I would generally agree with your last point, with the caveat above. However the Gundog breeds are more common within pet circles so there should be more pet trainers with sufficient understanding of how they `think', again that is not to say they have experience of how a `working' bred Spaniel thinks.
A last poke from my bias side ... If you want to learn more about the real countryside a well trained gundog will take great pleasure in taking you along that path. If you want to run along a path in the countryside with head phones on listening to music any dog on a lead and no training will do the same job with far less effort.You get to choose, the dog doesn't. I'm not playing the guilt card though

[Judy]

The problem with traditional gundog training is that it’s all control and command based, which is fine when you only go out for short, concentrated training sessions but very taxing when you want to go out for long hikes and the dogs good behaviour, or lack of it, is totally dependent on you concentrating on micro managing it while you’re trying to relax and enjoy the hike.

Naj

You mean gundog trainers/ workers never take their dogs out for a walk?! I take my tiny pups out "for a walk" without micromanaging them, never mind the older ones. At least doing a bit of gundog training will satisfy the Springer's desires / instincts as well as give a measure of control which you may not get out of the average pet obedience classes (in my experience).

If any of my youngsters failed to chase I'd actually be upset, it's in their nature. Nick gave some good advice; hide, gives the dog a scare, makes it think twice about legging it again. I was training in the middle of a huge stubble field one evening when we put up a hare, I had the camera so was taking photos but what I hadn't noticed was my youngster had also taken an interest and was just out of the shots. She chased it all the way to the end of the field before thinking of coming back by which time we simply weren't there!! We sat down quietly so were not presenting the picture she expected to see when she turned (faithful Mummy patiently waiting), she came back at the same speed she left but ignored us until she'd gone past and winded us. Boy was she pleased to see me. A couple of weeks later we were doing some walked up training elsewhere when we flushed another hare, she stood rock steady and watched it away - never had any more hare chasing. Which is a roundabout way of saying you don't have to find something to hide behind, just sit or lie down.

[Naj]

As NickH says, Gundog trainers generally train specifically for gundog work. The dog comes out, trains then goes back in. Not many, if any, pro trainers take their dogs for ‘walks’, and keen amateurs (Judy excepted ) often see a walk as dog at heel until they get to an area where they can train then back at heel. Whereas pet dog Trainers help people that want to walk their dogs all the time and that’s what they train for if they’re wise. And gundog training, per se, is no guarantee of control, as ‘Trained gundogs’ still have their moments when under distraction.

I’d have agreed with MunstyM a few years ago, that basic obedience is the same whether you want a pet or a gundog. But ‘training’ has moved on and the emphasis these days is less about traditional command based control through ‘obedience’ and more about teaching dogs to be relaxed in distracting environments so they can make (from the handlers perspective) the right choices. And there are pro pet dog trainers out there who can help turn gundog breeds into reliable walking companions. My step son has a pet working bred cocker that was getting away on him on walks but a pet dog trainer quickly helped him to get it back working with him again and it didn’t involve any running the dog down. And there are trainers who deal with both pets and working dogs and teach social walking skills to both. Jane Arden and Helen Phillips spring to mind and they both have online resources that you can access.

Naj