Dropping article in new locations - help please!

[David089]

Hey all!

So this is my second post, had some really solid advice on my last post re recall, thank you. I'm a complete beginner.

I'd love some advice on what to do here. I am seeing a trainer weekly, but of course he can't see the dog in every situation. 11 month lab bitch, had her about 6 weeks. She was part trained. Lots of things coming along really well. Following advice from on here and the trainer, I haven't had a failed recall since.

Onto the question. How do I stop her dropping the dummy? I don't use treats. Here is some back story from my last post. I'm separating as it was part of a recall post.

1. With the trainer, he asked me to do what i usually do, and observed. she dropped the dummy on the first retrieve. Fast forward after doing one himself, he started 'hold' command with a puppy dummy, gently placing it into her mouth, but quicky stopped and advised he thought the bitch was too soft and took a different approach. He said i was way too jumpy and stiff and my nervousness of her dropping was making it worse. So instead, when she's approaching with the ball or dummy, start walking away, then let her come in but don't go for the dummy straight away, let her walk with it, PRH, exactly as you mentioned. It worked. Effectively turning one retrieve into multiple 'deliveries'. She's hasn't dropped one since.

...OK so fast forward. In specific locations she doesn't drop. But new locations she still does, a few feet away from me, even if I walk back etc. I can tell from her body language she's distracted by new smells. I'm pretty sure it's not a 'holding atlrticle' issue and more of a 'there is more interesting stuff to sniff' issue, which of course means a hold issue, if that makes sense! I understand the concept of proofing, so know she doesn't quite understand what I'm asking in these situations.

She is much more exuberant about a longer run in than a short throw and build up, if I do just a little throw she'll play with the article in new locations, whereas a longer throw shes out fast. I don't want to engrain the drop, but how do I transition into new locations?

This morning we went out, it is a very gamey new area, deer scent everywhere. I heeled her out to the location. Two seen retrieves, fast out, dropped 5 feet from me and immediately nose into the ground sniffing. This makes me think it's purely a distraction issue 'you're not as interesting as this deer scent'. Gave one more for luck in the woods on the way back (bad idea, she's never been in woods), and just played with it. Similar to how I've seen her play with a rock or stick in the garden, 'throwing it' for herself and pouncing on it.

(Side note, do I stop her playing with anything in the garden?, which would be really hard to do. She plays with her kong like that, pawing at it, running with it etc).

Back into the garden (big uncut meadow at the back), used a tennis ball, fast out and back great delivery every time, both seen and memory.

How do I make the transition? Without letting the drop become ingrained, I'm concerned it is, when she's not particularly interested in 'starting small'. Shall I just walk her on lead in these new locations for a while to 'acclimatise' and stick to retrieves in the garden/locations without distractions?

Sometimes she'll be holding a rope toy or my old slipper, walking around the house with it for ages, and suddenly drop it if a door bangs for example, it's that same 'big distraction = drop what I have in mouth'.

Sometimes feels like one step forward two steps back!

I'm staying at my parent in law - she's never been here before, so everything is new. Maybe 'training' was a bad call today.

[Judy]

Are you sure she isn't just sniffing because she is uncertain about coming back to you?

Don't fret about doing more difficult retrieves in strange places, some dogs find simple retrieves deadly dull and get inventive with their attitude to bringing stuff back. I know accepted practice is to go several steps back in new environments but it isn't always necessary. One of my cleverer Cockers would chuck birds at my feet if she thought the retrieve had been 'too easy'.

A lot if my dogs have played silly solo games in the garden without any impact on 'real life'. Don't over think it.

[David089]

Thanks for the reply Judy. I don't think so re coming back to me - she enthusiastically recalls at the moment and sits at my feet tail wagging. Off lead she hangs around me, brings me things in the house etc.

Thanks for the feedback re solo games - reassuring to know. Because this is all new to me, trying to eliminate possible sources of problems!!

Quick update: I'm sure I'll be told I'm doing too much but hear me out!

I crated her for a few hours and thought I'd give it another shot. I'd only throw a retrieve if she was focused on me. Took a different heavier dummy, one she hasn't always liked - I emphasise, I only planned to throw if she was focused.

She was like a different dog, I did nothing different (I don't think), but I could tell she was in a different frame of mind, better heel, quick sits to whistle - focused. Threw a retrieve, fast out and back, no messing, great delivery. Same on memory, heeled her out off lead, walked back, sent her, great delivery. She becomes more and more enthusiastic if she miss marks and has to hunt for 30 seconds or so.

Moving forward, should I only retrieve if I get this type of focus? I'm starting to see a pattern in her body language to be able to predict if she'll drop.

If by her body language I can tell she's not as engaged, shall I maybe focus on other elements not involving an article?

Naj mentioned on my previous thread (recall) about the importance of heading down the correct path - want to try and set up for success here too.

[munstyman]

This morning we went out, it is a very gamey new area, deer scent everywhere. I heeled her out to the location. Two seen retrieves, fast out, dropped 5 feet from me and immediately nose into the ground sniffing. This makes me think it's purely a distraction issue 'you're not as interesting as this deer scent'. Gave one more for luck in the woods on the way back (bad idea, she's never been in woods), and just played with it. Similar to how I've seen her play with a rock or stick in the garden, 'throwing it' for herself and pouncing on it.

Can't remember if it was on your previous post or someone else's But I mentioned about the dog moving the boundaries of the game to make it more interesting for them. This is a classic example of that and has nothing to do with scent. She is not finding your reward for giving the dummy to hand sufficient, so either she wants you to `work' for it or as often is the case with young pups she wants you to try and take it `because she is distracted' and then quickly grab it and start the chase me game. There are a few other reasons that the dog is reluctant to bring to hand, whisker tweaking, hand shyness, etc but the solution s given work for those too. ( providing you don't keep repeating them )
The solution is to either teach the palm touch `game', place board training or simply have a more regulated approach to rewarding the retrieve. All too often once a dog starts retrieving, the handler reduces the praise or it stagnates at a certain level which reduces the enthusiasm for the dog or the dog gets bored and tries to up the reaction (reward ) from you by changing the game. ( even what we consider to be a negative response can register as a positive outcome for the dog ( getting that reaction ) and thus reinforce that behavior).
Always remember that the delivery and the retrieve are separate parts of the same event, and should be trained as individual aspects of that training. If the dog is keen to go out and find the retrieve as that is a challenge that is satisfying for the dog then you just need to concentrate your rewarding on the delivery aspect ( Obviously not in total isolation but in emphasis )
As our learned Judy said, don't overthink dogs playing games on their own. In fact I often watch and learn from them what they find motivating and then use that as and when necessary in training. Character assessment is as important, some would argue more so than training technique, getting into the mindset of your dog gives you more flexibility to use the tools in your toolbox.
* Cross posted with your reply to Judy and I would include `focus' and `mood' part of every day assessment of character when training. You have to be critical of your own character as well. If you or the dog is not really in the zone, it's best not to `go through the motions' because you feel you have to or should do. Instead go chase butterflies, roll in the grass and let the dog do what it wants and have a little fun together, pick up the training tomorrow

[Naj]

A few observations. I wouldn’t discount Judy’s suggestion that the sniffing may be pressure related because sniffing and seemingly acting as if you don’t exist are typical displacement behaviours. And with all behaviours context plays a huge part so just because your dog is compliant at home doesn’t mean it will be the same under a different context/environment. That’s why it’s important to generalise learned behaviours under increasing levels of distraction. I’d be of the mind that you chucked your dog into the deep end expecting it to do retrieves, cold, under the new distraction of heavily deer scented ground. What you should be aiming for in ‘training’ is to develop a conditioned retrieve (or any other behaviour that you train) so it is robust and reliable and the dog performs it almost without thinking and then you can increase the distraction levels. This all takes time. And, yes, if you work on other lessons in areas too distracting for retrieves it will all help the dog habituate to them, but as with all training move on in small increments.

You shouldn’t be trying any training, retrieving or otherwise, before getting the dog engaged with you. Why should it listen to you if you’re not even on its radar due to competing reinforcers in the environment. Engagement should be your first priority. That and practicing getting and maintaining engagement under increasing levels of distraction because once you have the dog willing to listen and work with you then the training bit is easy. And you keep pointing out that you don’t use rewards for retrieving, which is fair enough, but what do you use instead. What is motivating the dog to bring the retrieve to hand. A piece of food or praise might be considered an acceptable ‘reward’ by the handler but it only becomes a ‘reinforcement’ if it results in behaviour change. Similarly with ‘corrections’ of unwanted alternative behaviours, you need to see behaviour change. On the plus side you’ve spotted that your dog finds retrieving more fun if it has to work for the retrieve so ensure that its retrieves are always dropped in a bit of cover so it has to use its nose because this is far more interesting for most dogs then using their eyes on dummies in plain sight.

[Fullers1845]

I had this exact problem with my cocker.

She is 2 now and a fairly soft dog but can take a voice correction without folding up on me.

She was trying it on a bit by dropping retrieves to turn away and hunt instead, and fixing it basically came down to a well timed 'Grrr' as soon as the dummy was dropped, and then immediately a stern 'bring it in' (her command for a seen retrieve), immediately followed by a quick, short thrown retrieve. Then sat up at heel for a couple of minutes to chill for a bit and let it sink in.

Also she is a very scent driven dog and not really keen on canvas dummies and even tennis balls, so for blind retrieves I now only use rabbit skin dummies.

[David089]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply, really appreciate it!

It's so interesting the 'pressure' thing - she does come alive a lot more when not under pressure, but as a novice, it's hard to take away the pressure when things go wrong - it's almost like if things are failing, you can't reward as much and it takes a downward turn, whereas if things are going well, you can praise lots and the energy is so different.

The good news is she is only dropping maybe 1 in 10 over the last few days. When she does, I'm gently putting it back into her mouth, she'll take it with a gentle push towards the lips, then I'll have her hold just for a few seconds, lots of praise when in the mouth then sit for a minute to take it in, Fullers, as you suggested.

The sniffing being pressure related makes total sense, I've been watching her, and when she does her tail is quite low, whereas if she's on a scent while hunting, it's going like mad, similarly to when she hunts for the dummy, tail going crazy. Now when I notice that, I'm moving on, not pushing things.

Something else i noticed, which is obviously a rookie error! My whistle was hitting into her nose when I bent down to take the dummy - this morning, she held every time then dropped as my whistle hit her muzzle, i hadn't noticed before, but maybe that could have contributed!

I'm going to re-read through everything above a few times - lots of helpful info to take in!

Cheers!

[Nickheref]

I had one who did something similar if I moved from the position I had sent her from to teach her she had to find me with the retrieve. I put it down to her not being the keenest of retrievers (perhaps holder might be a better word in this case) and a bit nervous and it was slight panic if she thought she had lost me. I had to find something she really liked carrying and almost wasn't as easy to let go off as a slippery dummy, an old pair of socks or gloves rather than a dummy to start with.

[David089]

Hi guys! Thought I'd send in an update + ask for some advice - still having issues!

Training, on a whole, has been going well. Worked up to 100 yard+ memory retrieves, getting steady to dummies, started to introduce 'back', using 'out' when she's at heel. The problem is the area is public - so often i have to leave and go elsewhere.

My alternatives are heavily scented, where I'm still having issues - we're talking deer, rabbits, birds, would be rare not to see 5 rabbits, a deer or two, 2/3 birds flushed just walking to the field. Training is really hit and miss in these locations. Today she dropped the first at my feet, picked it up on 'fetch' and delivered poorly. Second, ignored the dummy, ran out, sniffed it and walked off. After that (10 mins later) i tried a tennis ball and let her run in - mad for it. Did about 5 and called it a day - she wanted more.

Some days (area dependent), I leave training thinking 'damn I'm doing well/she's coming along brilliantly' other days, like today, feels like I've taken 10 steps back and not sure how to move forward! I'm giving 5-10 retrieves most days.

A few questions please!
1. Shall i just let her run in on tennis balls for a bit in these locations, and slowly transition to more formal stuff? Then keep her on lead at heel for the rest of the time - so she knows she's either retrieving or at heel. I might have given her too much freedom in these areas previously (off lead free running/hunting for 10-20 mins). I'd always call her in and send her back out regularly. She will stop on a chase and re-call, not a formal stop.
2. If yes, should I continue formal training in the garden/unscented areas? Or leave it for a bit?
3. If not, and it's best to keep it more formal, should i maybe keep it really short and build up?
4. At 12 months, should i always have her at heel when out unless retrieving? She does have 30-60 mins free time in the garden.

Any advice greatly appreciated!!

[munstyman]

Today she dropped the first at my feet, picked it up on 'fetch' and delivered poorly. Second, ignored the dummy, ran out, sniffed it and walked off.

In that one line tells me your being too `formal' in your training. The dog clearly made the connection from the first delivery to the second, and `chose' to blink it. I'm guessing, and apologies in advance if I've gotten it totally wrong. But I expect the tone of `fetch' on the first was in the negative wave length, and the level of praise/reward when she did give it was muted at best or at worse totally lacking ( Human nature being what it is ).
Young dogs are prone to feeling pressure and their natural reaction is to avoid that feeling or objects that they associate with that pressure. You will if you continue to apply `formal' ( pressure ) too soon in a dogs training have the dog making that association with all the items we use to train them as you swap items but not address the actual problem, which is the pressure.
I hear it all the time at working tests " My dog is not interested in dummies since it has retrieved game " To which my obvious thoughts are why are you here then? as tests on the whole are run with dummies. My view is I train my dogs to retrieve what ever I send them for and they are happy to bring it to hand. One of mine retrieved an unopened packet of crisps floating down the river which a fisherman further upstream had accidentally dropped in the river. I've never used a packet of crisps in training the retrieve But I had taught the dog to retrieve what I indicated as a retrieve ( anything out of place in its surroundings where the dog is told to retrieve )
My next question is what is formal ? and why are you training in a formal way? Training should be fun not formal so why are you putting unnecessary pressure on yourself let alone the dog. The time to cross the T's and dot the i's is once the dog is doing the job your training for. If you've trained it right, `formal' should be more about containing the dogs enthusiasm through adding in the steps of presentation without curbing the whole process through pressure
The one step forward and two steps back is part of the whole dog training thing, dogs do it to keep us grounded. If you are only going two steps back think yourself lucky. With bitches its usually three steps back, with Cockers its usually four and with HPRs did you actually get one step forward before you found yourself going backwards?
The next point is another question. Of the 5-10 retrieves you do a day, how many do you pick up while the dog watches? ( and not because you have too ) I'm betting 0 , zero, British Eurovision nil punt I'll let you think about why I've asked it