It's all about the training!

[Nickheref]

Yes but rather better than most I see however trained at 12 months old, the point really was this bloke was trying and getting somewhere rather than making excuses as to why his dog didn't do what it was asked, I would have done things slightly differently and I don't ask for something if the dog is sniffing about and not paying attention, I would probably only be working on the sit at that age and his instructions weren't always completely clear but he has got it engaged and listening at 12 weeks and was calm and quiet, not giving 8 different instructions that purport to mean the same thing! The no, stop that, will you listen, no come here, stop it, listen to me, oh forget it and do what you want, your such a naughty dog but I love you anyway and I am sure you will be better when you are older training I more often see!!

[Naj]

I don’t disagree with any of that and I understood the point that you were making. A novice handler making novice mistakes was what I was really commenting on.

[Kibble]

I am on holiday in the Lake District, with Mia. I still have a vague hope that I can train her well enough to work her, but in the meantime, and until the shooting season starts, we are back to her original 'job', which was to walk with me. This week she has been mostly good on walks (coming away from other dogs, ignoring people, sitting on the track for cyclists to whiz past, coming to get a lead on when told, staying close enough when off lead and walking with loose lead - mostly). Off lead she tends to bounce across a little way in front of me in something like a quartering pattern, and turns to whistle or 'this way' cue. She will either stop or recall to whistle as well, but not always the right whistle so I have confused these at done point.

It's hot. I think I have the best week weather wise so far this year so I am making sure all walks involve water.
I let Mia run in for water retrieves as she has recently learnt to swim well. Might be a mistake but I like watching her launch into water and swim really well. She has set up a few ducks, but doesn't chase once they have left the water, even though they only fly a few yards. She is distracted from ducks by a ball.
I have had a few 'good dog' type comments, which is nice and I was feeling quite pleased.....

However, last evening I took a donder along the river from Skelwith Bridge towards Elterwater. At least one of you will know that stroll. There was no stock in the field, plenty of water, lots of people and dogs. Most of the dogs were on leads or flexis, which I find a bit sad. Rather than keep putting Mia on lead I just made an avoidance detour when necessary.

All was fine and we were nearly back, when Mia caught a scent and flushed a couple of pheasants from a reedy bit by the river. She didn't so much chase when they flew, as run back and forth over and over the ground. I have learnt from here to think of this as 'clearing the ground'. I doubt there was a nest as it's dog central and it would be a very stupid place to nest, so I think she was just high on scent. It's the proverbial red mist and she is like a different dog.

Mia will come back quickly if she flushes a pigeon, isn't bothered by shore birds, is only mildly interested in ducks, but pheasants are a different matter altogether. I have never been able to catch her. She is very fast, and so, embarrassingly I just had to wait her out.

Taking her beating on a shoot is not an option, while I have zero control in the presence of game and I don't know what more I can do. Taking her beating, but on a lead, doesn't sound like fun.

I have been trying a different approach to steadiness, using sloping ground. I hold her gently, roll a ball, wait till it stops, release her and then cue to send her. She has taught herself to play this game by nudging the ball and waiting. It looks like a cat playing with a mouse. It must be a natural hunting strategy. Sometimes she brings me the ball so I can roll it, but I am just letting her decide. My thoughts are that one of the important differences between novice and experienced trainers is about being relaxed as well as having confidence.

[Nickheref]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record if you took a step back and worked on a reliable stop, which is not nearly as difficult as you would think watching most dogs, then you could go beating. None of the things she is doing are really wrong, the main problem is you are not confident with the stop and therefore cannot move on.
If I had a young dog doing all of those things I would be reasonably happy, add in a good stop and you are well on the way!

[Kibble]

Thank you
Honestly walking her is easier, and I am more confident now, so I guess some training has eventually sunk in.

We are home and I am definitely going to work on Stop, stop and more stop. I can get a stop, and even a stop and sit, but it's not reliable. It would be easy if I could use the beach, but it's just not pleasant in summer. The forest track is good though.

I gave Mia a break on the way home, with a run in a park. I got a mouthful of abuse for not letting her 'socialise', and asking someone to please call their dog. Apparently I should know Mia just wanted to play and I was wrong for calling her away. I was delighted that she came to me and I guess I can cope with a bit of 'clearing the ground', until I sort the stop.

I think some people genuinely believe that letting their dogs run around with random other dogs is the right thing to do. No wonder there are so many dogs confined to flexies. I don't want that so more effort needed.

[newf]

The thing is, you do want your dog to socialize and be a dog. Proper training, allows two things, freedom and recall. A pups’ life is too short for a training model that may have it ready at 3 to 4 years of age or worst, never.

[Kibble]

Steadiness is still a problem with Mia, but I am having a bit of fun with some scent games in the garden, and I think this is helping.
In one game Mia has to sit while I throw three bits of plaited fleece in front of her. Then she goes on cue to fetch the one that is scented with catnip. Quite why she will wait patiently for the cue in this game, but finds it harder to sit if I throw dummies about I am not sure. The fleece doesn't make a noise when it lands, which might help. Also I like that she can find the scented piece, and ignore the other two, so maybe it is just a more interesting game for both of us and that might help. She brings the fleece back nicely as well. I could try using different scents or different items I suppose.

At present I can walk Mia through the woods, with good control. However, I know this will change once the pheasant shooting starts and a few birds inevitably escape from the shooting ground.

It seems to me that whenever Mia flushes one pheasant, she will soon flush another from about the same place. 'Clearing the ground' makes sense when pheasants go about in pairs and making her stop (pause) should be easier than calling her back, if we were really hunting. I don't know if it is just coincidence, but I have seen that the hen bird usually seems to flush first. Is that right?

[Kibble]

Mia is now officially a working WCS! There is still a long way to go. For now she is on a lead and not too close to the action on a small shoot.
However, it's a start and I want to say thank you for all the great forum advice. I have learnt so much and made lots of mistakes. I suppose Mia has finally won.

[Nickheref]

Do enjoy it and be prepared to take the odd risk, you don't know if you haven't tried! We have all at some point stood wondering where on earth the little b has got to - so my top tip is if that happens just keep quiet and wait for her to find you. If she really is rampaging she almost certainly won't be listening to you and all you do is let everyone else know it has gone wrong!

[PRH]

/\ that is great advice Nick. Quietly celebrate the wins and very quietly deal with the cock ups!