Struggling with directional work

[Nickheref]

First one sent in grass maybe 10 inches tall, so it did hide the dummy, she took such a good line but stopped literally 2 meters short then had to handle her onto it, took quite a bit of handling as it was deep into the corner of a field, if only I put it slightly out the corner!

If the dog has genuinely winded it I would not expect it to stop short but either go straight to it or hunt it out as it knows there is something to find. In essence I am initially trying to avoid handling the dog at all, just giving it confidence that if I send it on a line (later possibly me trying to take into account the wind direction if it is a cross wind) that there is something to find. Later when they are used to going out and hunting for the dummy I will bring in directional handling.

Not sure what breed you are dealing with but I find springers quickly pick up directional work when working on quartering. I personally would be careful of too much handling training, it is fun and makes you feel you are training but irritating when the dog repeatedly asks for help and your answer is "I don't really know either , it is somewhere out there about 40 yards out!" I did it with my first dog and was very pleased with my handling, not so happy when I had to help her a lot so have the tee shirt!!!!

[David089]

Cheers guys - yeah really trying not to handle, only handing if it's looking like she she doesn't quite understand.

Nickheref, lab bitch 18 months.

Did a few ladder blinds this morning in a new location. I thought she had it, but turns out she doesn't completely. After the second in the ladder went a bit wrong and recalled and sent again. Almost as if she needed some time for it to 'click'. The ladder was over a hill so definitely couldn't see the next dummy from the one before. I also hid a second dummy at a memory blind, sent her for the first no problem, but sent her again, 'popped' half way as if to say 'I've already got this one' gave a quick back and she went back to it.

Interestingly, she takes a much better/more confident line if I throw a distraction dummy to the side. Sent her on a true blind over a brow, she only had to run 15 meters over the brow until she could spot it, by throwing a distraction it seems as though she think 'OK, he's thrown something there, there must be something else where he's pointing' if that makes sense.

I wonder if she might have more confidence in taking a line on blinds once I introduce shot. (Just bought a starter pistol and plan on starting next week). It's seeming like less of a lining issue and more of a 'I don't know what you're asking'/confidence issue. If I start to introduce shot with marks, and she associates 'bang' with the retrieve, firing on blinds might create confidence that something is out there.

But totally understand re baby steps, and really trying to do that while still progressing.



Ps. I keep forgetting to walk her at heel towards the blind until she indicates she's winded it, going to try that tomorrow

[Naj]

Hi, make sure you introduce her to the sound of the starting pistol carefully, starting when she’s at a distance from you while she’s at exercise or preoccupied with something else, then working closer. I reward mine after every shot at first. Once you know she’s comfortable with the sound of a bang then you can start combining it with retrieves. Do the same thing when introducing to the 12 bore, but over longer distances.

As others have said, it’s all about building confidence that if she goes out where you point she’ll be rewarded with a retrieve. The distraction dummy to the side works because she understands the context and it’s become a cue for … there must be a dummy to retrieve over there. But you really need to work on her going straight out on command in whichever direction you send her.

To build confidence I used to develop retrieving hotspots, places where they learn they will always find a dummy. I’d start this by marked retrieves in a patch of light cover, then I’d toss in two or three dummies, widely spaced, and keep lining them up and sending them back for them. Then I’d hide two before we got there, toss one in for the dog to see and send them in and repeat until all are collected. Then I’d hide three and do the same. Start close and when they’ve got the hang of it you can add distance a few yards at a time. With spaniels I’d be getting to 60-70 yards. Then you’d have a hot spot and can use it from a different angle, starting close and adding distance. Then another angle until you can send them from anywhere in the field. Develop a few hotspots in different places and you start generalising the behaviour. I also used to send them on a mark downwind and while they were on their outrun I’d throw a dummy upwind and in the opposite direction. Start close at first so they can’t fail then add distance to your throws. Pretty soon they’ll be going out enthusiastically on the ‘blinds’ and you can throw a dummy every time they’re on an outrun, taking care not to bore them. But don’t test her with distances she’s likely to fail on. Build distances up slowly. The same with combining it all by ‘handling’ on left rights and backs, what we used to call the three card trick.

[David089]

So this morning I took her out, setup a ladder blind in rough grass, heeled her until I knew she winded it, sent her, went with confidence and found the first on a good line (less than 20 metres. The second and third went off line at the position of the first dummy by maybe three meters, the scent pulled her to the second and third but not on a clean line.

Next two were true blinds on a clear path, no issues.

Last blind in open ground, sent her once I though she winded it, ran off line immediately and looked back at me 5 metres away as if to say 'I have no idea what I'm supposed to do here'. I picked it and finished with a long memory over hills and through cover.

Thanks Naj, I'll definitely be very careful with the pistol. Went to the game show last year and sat close to lots of shot and she didn't seen fazed in the slightest. But I'll start a good distance away. I was thinking I'll start at meal times, a good distance away.

I'll try exactly as you explain 'hot spots' I have a few permanent blinds setup so I'll start sending her to them from different angles.

I was also thinking of using white marker poles for a while, what do you think of giving lots of retrieves to a pole, then when she's familiar with the pole I could almost setup permanent blinds/hot spots anywhere with the pole becoming the hotspot then faze it out?

Naj, I must have read hundreds of your replies on various post over the last year!

Thanks all!

[Naj]

Was going to mention marker poles as an effective method of teaching the send away but had written too much already! Yeah, they’re very useful and help break down the retrieve behaviour chain into smaller increments that you can work on separately. I’d leave an edible reward at the base of the pole and then later you can leave a dummy. You can buy white posts used for temporary electric fencing from any agricultural store. Incidentally, quite a few trainers are now using a similar exercise, where the dog is taught to circle the cone or post and return to the handler, for teaching the send away and also stop at a distance.

I’d also suggest bucket training (or pile training) where you tip a bucket of dummies in a pile, leave the bucket as a marker, get your dog and throw a single dummy into the pile from say 30 yards away to get it started, then on each return you take the dummy and send them straight out for the next one, stepping back a yard each time to add distance. The aim is to build confidence in the send away and speed on the outrun and return, so the essence is on getting hold of the dummy and sending them straight out again without any faffing about, and dogs do get very enthusiastic once they understand the game. You could also use your white marker post instead of the bucket. Once they understand the game you can add two or three more piles in different directions to help generalise the behaviour. And it can be used to help dogs learn to negotiate natural boundaries or objects or retrieves across water etc. It’s common for dogs to do a bit of ‘shopping’ at the pile but I don’t worry about this and it usually sorts itself out. I did once successfully teach a dog not to ‘shop’ when presented with more than one ball to retrieve, just for a bit of fun, but came to the conclusion that life’s too short to worry about such things.

[David089]

Hi all! Considering all your helpful replies I thought I'd send an update.

So, left, right, back all sorted reliably - did a mixture of everything recommend, went back to just two dummies out rather than three, permanent blind then throwing a pile half way (but then picking) and giving back when she stopped to hunt. I'm confident she understands and handles nicely at distance. I'm still trying not to handle as much as possible.

I'm now at a group training session run by an experienced trainer who trials. It's been a game changer.

Something that came up was directional work from heel, when I went into that process more (multiple memories), I thought I was knocking some of the drive out of her by giving a stern NO if she went out on the wrong line, but the trainer said she was actually just deciding where she wanted to go rather than not understanding. So had to be pretty firm and 'see it through' (which due to my lack of experience, found hard), as with hold conditioning. Starting to come out the other side now with a dog that's taking a nice line through cover on a true blind (something I just couldn't have seen a few months back). Because she's listening to my arm directions, it's also meaning I'm having to correct far less often and the drive/confidence is really coming back.

I'm finally seeing how you progress from memories to true blinds. She has to not only have full confidence where I point there will be something, she also has to know that's where she must go (no option to not follow my direction).

It felt great training last week, sending her on a long true blind, maybe 100 yards or so, through 1ft tall light cover, slightly overran, stopped, hunt whitle, found. Had the biggest grin on my face seeing the hours of work start to come together.

Just introduced the dummy launcher too, she loves it. Finding it great for distance handling, firing out one, stopping, firing another out to the left or right and directing to those.

Anyway, all going well! But I'm sure there will be another issue just around the corner.

Thanks again all!

[Judy]

There's always issues, especially when you start to relax and think you've nailed it.
Did the trainer mention your footwork when the dog is sent from heel? Sending from your left side; if the dummy is straight ahead, right foot forward in line with left foot, send dog, if dummy to right, right foot forward and to your right, send. If dummy further to right your right foot should move further away (and forward) from the left one before sending. If dummy to your left, right foot forward and slightly in front of the dog. Basically move your right foot so's it's in line with the dummy before sending the dog. Easier done than said.