How am I doing?

[Nutter]

Retrieve training less often and with more variety is better, the dog is more enthusiastic and involved

Reassuring! I found this out through overdoing it before (and yet have been tempted again now it's going better...)

When it comes to retrieving variety is definitely the spice of life

Aint that the truth

[Naj]

For me the spaniel’s primary function is to hunt for, and find, game. The retrieving is just a sideline after the fact, so to speak, and since I only shoot over my dogs, most retrieves are pretty straightforward so don’t need much in the way of refined handling. So when I worked springers, and later cockers, I based most of my training around hunting. Dummies were thrown partly as steadiness training, rewarded by completion of the retrieve, or left as a memory retrieve while the dog was hunted on and sent back for it later. This developed into surreptitiously dropping a dummy while the dog was hunting then sending it back for it as a blind retrieve.

Back in the day I relied heavily on corrections and would run down a pulling dog that was sloppy on its turns and give it a good scruffing, which was the norm back then. These days I don’t use corrections and so would revert to game play, sneaking in a dummy or ball and then redirecting the dog onto it to find, and this would have the dual purpose of building a strong working relationship between me and the dog, where we begin to build trust in each other, while giving the dog purpose to stick with you, because good things happen around you, and providing it with a motivation to hunt close. At the moment it is pulling because nothing is happening around you so it hunts on looking for environmental reinforcers, which are more readily available. I also used to hunt my young cockers trailing a 15 to 20 m length of thinly braided chord that snaked about in front of me and which I could quickly step on if things went awry. Your young dog should be hunting within 10-15 yards either side and in front of you (even tighter if they have been allowed to pull on) at this stage and if you stopped walking should continue hunting just in front of you rather than pulling on. If they’re too focussed on the environment then they’re not going to be engaged with you and things will go wrong and you’ll be forever hanging onto their shirt tails.

[Nutter]

Thanks Naj that is lots of food for thought - hadnt looked at it in that light. Funnily enough dropping hidden dummies is how the trainer I was seeing hunts pups when demoing, but then teaches students to use the cord you have described. Never really thought much about the discrepancy there.

What do you do when they have found the prize - call them in for a delivery?

[Naj]

Thanks Naj that is lots of food for thought - hadnt looked at it in that light. Funnily enough dropping hidden dummies is how the trainer I was seeing hunts pups when demoing, but then teaches students to use the cord you have described. Never really thought much about the discrepancy there.

What do you do when they have found the prize - call them in for a delivery?

Yes, the pup retrieves the ball/dummy. Balls are better for this type of thing because they take more effort to find. And dogs get wedded to them and they can then be used as powerful rewards for other behaviours, like remote stop to whistle, recall or heeling, especially in distracting environments where food might lose its potency.

[Nutter]

Naj, just popped out for 20 min with the pup and tried this with two balls - the change in how she runs is incredible. Nose to the ground and much closer to me. Thanks so much

[Nutter]

Well I finally took the advice that was tactfully hinted at originally, and sacked off both the trainer and the long line... and predominant feeling is relief to be honest. I had been feeling a bit unconfortable with the training for a long time before my original posts on here but the trainer's model sort of encouraged dependency and a fear of causing irrevocable harm by deviating from the method, and so spent too much time and money trying to rationalise it. Thanks very much for the reassurance and advice all, especially Naj - emboldened me to try different things and today went out with a ball and no check cord at all and it was joyous.

I feel a bit sad that I didn't trust my instincts sooner (there were a few mildly unscrupulous interactions encountered early on in training) but better late than never eh. Training has been a lot more fun recently so many thanks

[Nutter]

So as to not clog up the other thread thought i would post todays training diary here, in the hope anyone might have some suggestions or point our glaring errors I have been making... advice always gratefully received.

Fri 18th Sep
Rectangle field at the nature reserve.

1. Hunted her across the nature reserve grass towards the field, tried hiding a couple of balls in light cover and hunting her onto them as Naj suggested but she literally moved them out of the way to sniff the ground beneath them so I desisted.

2. Some quartering when we reached the rectangle field, then threw a ball for her, let her run in. Usual story - picked it, came halfway back then veered to the field border to drop it and sniff the long grass there

3. Put her on the slip lead and sat her. Threw the ball, she lunged but was stopped by the lead. We heeled to the ball and I picked it. Repeated 5 or 6 times until i got to the border.

3. With my back to the border, threw the ball again, holding her in check with the slip lead, then sent her for it. Her marking is not great but she ran in the right direction and hunted til she found it. Came running back to me and because she couldnt fly past, she turned and ran along the border but i managed to tempt her back by backing away, and get her to hold the ball standing by me for a few seconds until I took it from her. Gave her a treat which she happily took but wasnt too fussed by, more interested in exploring again.

4. Bit more quartering then tried that again - 5 throws on the slip lead that I picked, then released for the 6th. This time i was in the middle of the field, which was perhaps an error. She ran in picked it and came back, but turned and ran off again with it towards the field exit. No point whistling so I immediately lay down. A few moments later she came barreling over to me sans ball and was very pleased to see me.

5. I popped her back on the lead and we heeled along the border looking for the dropped ball. Found it and quartered our way to the car

I think:
She has good drive for thrown balls. Letting her run for 1 in 5 is a good thing I think.
The problems are getting her to come all the way back without getting distracted by something else, which is when she drops the the ball. I think will try having my back to the border again. I did try retrieving in a natural lane with hedges on either side recently, and she still managed to get distracted by the hedge! Perhaps need to go back to a proper boring retrieving lane fenced on either side...? She will do it in the house no problem

[Cornishbird]

Hi Nutter

Reading your post from yesterday I can empathise.

We’ve gone through some similar processes. Sorry if you’ve posted elsewhere about the type of balls you use, however are you using regular tennis balls? As I said in the other thread I’ve found that my young fella will not retrieve or hunt for regular tennis balls at all for love or money! And he won’t even play with them. He’s very similar spots the tennis ball on the ground and carries on as if it wasn’t there.

Have you tried sniper dummies or rabbit covered balls or a lotus ball? I had far more success with using those for hunting especially at the early stages of our training. The other item we used was a rabbit covered paws pocket dog treat ball to help encourage the hunting. I still take these out now to add to the variety. I know there are mixed views about using treat pockets etc however for us they’ve been a really useful tool to get that engagement with hunting and retrieving.

Also whenever he found anything I would have a “party” for 30 seconds or so with him before we moved on. By having a “party” playing with a toy that’s only available at training and when we’re out he became more engaged with me and less interested in the smells and hedge.

With dropping the dummy en route to me after the lap or two of honour, it has taken a lot of patience and encouragement with him before he thought ah I need to take this back! Very similar to you a smell or the hedge or mice were a distraction, mice to be fair still are.

So for us again I made myself exciting, encouraging him all the way to return to me. At this point I wasn’t worried about a hand delivery just getting him back and then as above have a party either by throwing a ball on a string a short distance behind me or rewarding with treats just in front of me or having a toy ready for him to play with. However always mixing it up every time so he didn’t know what to expect so I didn’t become less exciting. With time and patience the young fella now comes back to me, if he does to decide to drop the dummy because a smell has caught him I stand my ground and shout “where is it” or similar and he’ll go back to where he dropped the dummy and return to me.

With marking have you tried a ladder style approach? So starting off throwing a dummy or something a short distance marking it and then building it up from there? So eventually as the dummy lands further away from you the dog should be able to mark it.

I use play a lot too when we’re out in between “drills” so it gives him a break from what we’re doing or we walk for a bit so he gets his sniffs out before returning to the next bit I wanted us to practice.

Just my thoughts I’m by no means experienced still very much a novice however these are just a few things that have helped us.

[Nutter]

Cornishbird, this is very reassuring, I am so pleased to read all of this, especially because.....

After I posted on Fri I spent some time rereading Wullies diaries and he mentioned early on exactly what you say about being exciting:

The bitch is now at the stage of sittting but still with a loop of leash around her neck. She easily found the 30 yard retrieve but began to mess about with it near to her handler. The usual story !!! I have, several times now , advised this lady to make herself more interesting to her dog. If she would do this just for a few weeks she could avoid the bitches fast forming "now I'll play with it" attitude.

I was getting frustrated at how best to explain " a more intersting attitude" to her without it sounding like I was trying to imply she is boring !

We tried again with the bitch but this time I called her back with the dummy - - - - I lay flat on my back in that "rashy grund" and sort of wiggled a bit as I called her vocally and by whistle. The bitch was on me in an instant and we had a sort of cuddle game involving her , me and a dummy.
I agree this is a bit extreme but her owner is now aware of what could be done . She was last seen heading running off in the Glasgow direction windmilling her arms and shouting " Whoooooo -000 !!! Whoooooo - OOO!!!" Her dummy carrying bitch was catching up fast last time I saw them - hopefully they'll be back in time for next weeks training session !

I thought I was being exciting, but completely amped it up this weekend - running full pelt away from her when she picked the ball, changing direction as she flew past, and so on, and then treating her.... and that, combined with taking her out with a friend's ball-mad cocker for a litle competition, has made SUCH a difference.

V helpful to hear the lengths to which you have gone to give your cocker a reason to come back - thought I was doing enough but there is lots of room to escalate and think was getting a bit bogged down in what she "should" do and not why she should bother doing it. It is also unlearning a way of thinking tbh.

It has been a really different weekend in a positive way so will try a few of those tricks - might invest in a tug of war toy

[Nutter]

PS wrt having a party - this is great - going to think of it like this now

Wrt balls - would you believe we have a collection of about 10 balls of different materials, pockets, non pockets and so on, but not one of them has been purchased. Suppose it is a sign she likes hunting for balls at least a bit have a few rabbit skin dummies too but retired them for a bit because interest was waning, will try now with these tweaks