Well

[Naj]

Ideally I’d be sneaking in balls into cover so she has something to hunt for. If she’s not keen on tennis balls then I’d try rabbit skin balls or a bunch of wings tied together.

An interesting point from the Kugae video is the oft argued over marking versus switching attention to the handler conundrum. On the video he clearly prefers the dog to mark the retrieve and then focus on him for instruction, much the way I do and the same as was common practice when I started training. He also believes in training for what you want out of a dog, rather than what others think you should train for. Very refreshing!

[Cornishbird]

I too wondered if Munstyman thought recording was a bad idea initially. However I also thought Munstyman was so relieved and excited by my idea there was no other way to express it!!

It might well be my cue consistency plays it part on his interest to retrieve etc when we’re out training or at lessons. However I don’t think I’m always that inconsistent but that’s me marking my own work!

I suppose because our last dog (spaniel) was so keen to work and train, and this one isn’t I’ve used that as a bit of a bench mark. Though I know comparing dogs doesn’t always help as each one is different.

You were probably right to end your training session in that moment as otherwise you could’ve ended up more frustrated! I usually know within a few moments of starting training whether we’re going to do anything or not

Maybe try out the boring and see how it goes. And yup manifesting is key

To be fair I don’t think some dogs are all that interested in tennis balls. I know my dog isn’t at all interested hunting tennis balls he goes meh and buggers off! I use rabbit covered balls/ small dummies they seem to work better for us.

Something that helps us with hunting if he starts sniffing/ searching an area or bushes or hedges on his own is me joining in by telling him our cue word and then he starts listening / watching me and when I’m able I’ll drop a dummy for him to get without him noticing (harder than it looks) and he’ll get it to bring back to me. That was a tip from my trainer one lesson as he started hunting by himself, so rather than call him away I was told join him, cue him etc and lo and behold he was then hunting with me. Maybe see if that works for you?

Your exasperated phrase is me most of the time, but then last night we went out found a good area for retrieving and hunting and the little wotsit was 100% I’m doing this! He was the same earlier this morning.

We only train 2-3 times a week. In between I now do other types of training when out with him, like pattern games I’ve learned through another trainer we do stuff with. Since doing these with him out and about he is much better in terms of engagement.

I’m with you, may need a second dog!!

[Judy]

Ideally I’d be sneaking in balls into cover so she has something to hunt for. If she’s not keen on tennis balls then I’d try rabbit skin balls or a bunch of wings tied together.

An interesting point from the Kugae video is the oft argued over marking versus switching attention to the handler conundrum. On the video he clearly prefers the dog to mark the retrieve and then focus on him for instruction, much the way I do and the same as was common practice when I started training. He also believes in training for what you want out of a dog, rather than what others think you should train for. Very refreshing!

I agree! Mostly I let the dogs decide whether to stare at the mark or look at me, they learn what suits them best, as an aside, if mark fixated how do they then mark the other five or more birds they have to fetch later?
I did have one Flatcoat that used to stare and start whimpering if she had seen a runner that I had missed and a Cocker who quickly learned that she had to fetch runners only during the drive and leave dead ones to the end, that was a really useful skill, until the day she ran out to what I thought was a runner only for it to die before she got there. Little b' sat beside it the rest of the drive looking for a runner to fetch.

I've never had much luck with the hunting for balls thing, seems to disrupt the game so I tend to teach close hunting and retrieves separately with the accent on the retrieves as they are picking up dogs not purist Spaniels.

[munstyman]

Just my personal dislike for people with phones out whilst exercising/training dogs off leash.

My point is whilst recording a training session is a useful tool. The moment you are handling a "phone" and getting things in focus and capturing the action. Your dog will know the change in where your focus is, and your "training" will suffer. In simple terms you are adding a cue which the dog can react to and set up an "atmosphere" which can go either way. ( Similar to when you get the gun out of the cabinet to go shooting)
The only way it works is if you wear a body/head cam and set it up before you walk out the door, so even you forget that your wearing it.
When I train others I always wear a body cam or hat camera as I can replay footage to the handler especially concerning how they change their commands and how they miss those moments when a dog shows its intent before they actually act , and how that was the moment to use the whistle The difference is I'm not handling the dog, so there is no "distraction" between dog and handler. The other thing to remember is if you don't know what you are doing wrong, how are you going to recognise it? I've had a few handlers that still couldn't see what I was seeing in their dog. Even after a couple of play throughs and still said it was the dog being bloody minded rather than take responsibility.
The downside of a body cam for your own training is you only see the dog and maybe hear your handling you don't see your body language and dogs take a lot of cues from your body even if you think they are only responding to your commands

Something that helps us with hunting if he starts sniffing/ searching an area or bushes or hedges on his own is me joining in by telling him our cue word and then he starts listening / watching

Now this is something I can get behind. When you show an interest in hunting, whilst the dog is hunting that is a very strong connection seen by the dog. You just have to be aware that if you do not know what the dog has going through its nostrils, you can be encouraging the dog to hunt something that you may not want ( mice, voles, squirrels etc ). I refer to it as building the team so the dog sees you as a part of the team. Your talking dog.

[Judy]

Just be aware that you may need to delete some films although I still have one, I think, that shows my pup sitting in front of me with me about to teach "back" by throwing a dummy over her head except that the string caught my finger and the dummy landed about a foot to my side, swiftly followed by a loud expletive and a small dog running in.

[Cornishbird]

I had a reply all written out, pressed submit and poof gone! Hopefully this version will make the grade!!

Thanks Munstyman for explaining the

Your response about recording makes sense. I had thought about a body cam, however hadn’t thought about your points regarding how much I may or see of my body language as I’ve never used one. An option I had thought about was a golfing tripod which tracks movement. The reason I’ve considered this option was because I use marker poles out training and thought a tripod wouldn’t change too much of my picture or the dogs - linking in what you said about “atmosphere” as he’s definitely one to pick up on this.

Short of setting up my own social media channel (which there already 100s of out there) I wondered if my trainer would agree to watch some of my recordings providing I don’t inundate their inbox with them, especially if it follows on from a lesson. I’ve sent small clippings before and had feedback on what I’ve done. Haven’t asked yet as I’ve been looking at what’s available to record and equally I need to think about goodwill in the sense of time etc.

I’d say I can read my dog, but I do know that I miss moments of intent before the act as you say - the before the before - and that’s because I’ve been so focused on what I’ve been told to do or needed to do that I’ve taken my eyes of the dog and he’s done his own thing.

Hunting so he does hunt mice and I’ve learned that his body language 100% changes when he’s found mice in the ground. It’s not something I want him to do, so I don’t encourage him when he does it. I pop him on the lead and move us away.

[munstyman]

Setting a camera up to record the wider scene of an exercise with both handler and dog in view is by far the most informative and useful for someone else to have useful/critical input. Again this comes with the caveat that in setting it all up it may influence how the dog behaves to the exercise, the emphasis is on "may", and needs to be considered when analysing the exercise. The other thing you have to take into account when sharing it, be it with your trainer or with the wider public, is will their feedback be valuable or even accurate? We live in an era of armchair online experts after all Then of course there is the "camera never lies" but the editor is a master of them . Complete Raw footage may not be cinematically perfect and Oscar nomination material, but it is by far the most informative for constructive criticism. Personally I'm tuned in to edit points historically from MSM, and automatically resist following down that road. The answer to many problems are in the periphery not the main action you want the viewer to focus on. Dogs and nature don't lie.

I’d say I can read my dog, but I do know that I miss moments of intent before the act as you say - the before the before - and that’s because I’ve been so focused on what I’ve been told to do or needed to do that I’ve taken my eyes of the dog and he’s done his own thing.

And there you have it Eye contact is part of the conversation you and the dog are having, it does not have to be vocal but it needs to be continuous. Once the DOG feels your not participating it will switch from you to themselves, simple. This loops back to why I about people and phones in hand and training/exercise of leash

[Nutter]

So true about the camera being a cue munsty. Whenever I recorded heelwork with a tripod, she would heel much better than when it wasn't recorded! I did also record quartering as you describe but tbh the field of view means the dog ends up becoming a small speck or going off screen very quickly...

Cornishbird, the most useful footage I get is when my partner comes out and films following us. You would get footage much less often but that's probably better to be honest - quality not quantity.

Also, speaking of quantity, training 2-3 times a week?! I am definitely doing too much with her. We do a little training each time we go out and we go out twice a day...

Naj, in the space of a week she has taken to dropping rabbit skin dummies and balls, whether thrown or hidden in cover. If thrown - i let her run in for them to build excitement, she will pick them, come nearly back, get distracted and veer off, drop them and then return to me. If hidden - she will hunt beautifully with me for them, find them and do the same. I am definitely doing too much. I somehow forgot what a fragile retriever she has been most of her life - dunno why I expected things to be suddenly different having watched some different training videos I'll cut back to bringing out the "goodies" only every couple of days and maybe upgrade to a wing.

In the meantime when we get back from an outing, I have started hold exercises - getting her up on a placeboard to hold my wet rolled up socks for 5 seconds, which she seems to like so all is not lost

One question - outside of those dummy sessions, on my usual twice daily outings I am doing a lot of intermittent on lead heeling, interspersed with off lead still using the turn whistle/hunting her to keep her engaged and close and prevent her pulling further away, even though there is no hidden reward. Wondering if that will extinct her lovely reliable turning/make her not trust me? Maybe scattering kibble is the solution? I tried it a while ago and she was a bit crap at finding it, but then I wonder if I have got her a bit more engaged in finding things now. Or would you just let her roam free and not mind her pulling away but just recall her from time to time?

[Nutter]

PS gosh it's nice to read this from someone else

I’d say I can read my dog, but I do know that I miss moments of intent before the act as you say - the before the before

I usually know within a few moments of starting training whether we’re going to do anything or not

What are pattern games?

[Nickheref]

Just be aware that you may need to delete some films although I still have one, I think, that shows my pup sitting in front of me with me about to teach "back" by throwing a dummy over her head except that the string caught my finger and the dummy landed about a foot to my side, swiftly followed by a loud expletive and a small dog running in.