The dog or the bitch ?
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liverandwhite
The dog or the bitch ?
Which do people put more emphasis on in their breeding plans. The dog or the bitch?. Can a super dog/bitch carry a medioca mate?. Now and again a mating out of two non descripts will throw out a world beater, just to let us know that nature is in charge, but generally the best will produce the best. It is also important to me to use the dog/bitch itself not a brother/sister. Myself personally i would go for the best bitch line everytime as my main priority.
Re: The dog or the bitch ?
all too often you see pedigree's with lots of red, until you look at the bottom line and there is next to nothing 
Re: The dog or the bitch ?
I fall into this category t-jack- one side is full of red (ftch) and the other side is not.
I bought a bitch as a pet and then got into gundog training. I go back regularly to see the breeder whose dog is a pet but out of working parents with only 3 ftch's a longway back and she ploughs through brambles, shoves up game left right and centre and is fast sylish and an excellant retriever (all be it of tennis balls). The sire so far who is FTCHXFTCH bred hasn't done anything and I know if her dam had been trialled or worked she would have been a belter and I am in the process of trying to persuade the breeder to give it a go in terms of gundog work anyway.
Whilst I think that you probably do have a better chance of sucess in terms of trialling with FTCHX FTCH bred dog- a dog is never going to become a FTCH unless it is trialled there are probably loads of exceptional working dogs who would trial with some success if they are with the right handler and the said handler really dedicates themselves to a training program.
I really hope that I can bring my bitch on and be brave enough to buck the trend in her mothers side and try and enter a few trials so that it can be proved that it can be done. It may take me a bit longer as she's my first dog but if I can put the hard work in to training then fingers crossed we can have some fun trying.
I bought a bitch as a pet and then got into gundog training. I go back regularly to see the breeder whose dog is a pet but out of working parents with only 3 ftch's a longway back and she ploughs through brambles, shoves up game left right and centre and is fast sylish and an excellant retriever (all be it of tennis balls). The sire so far who is FTCHXFTCH bred hasn't done anything and I know if her dam had been trialled or worked she would have been a belter and I am in the process of trying to persuade the breeder to give it a go in terms of gundog work anyway.
Whilst I think that you probably do have a better chance of sucess in terms of trialling with FTCHX FTCH bred dog- a dog is never going to become a FTCH unless it is trialled there are probably loads of exceptional working dogs who would trial with some success if they are with the right handler and the said handler really dedicates themselves to a training program.
I really hope that I can bring my bitch on and be brave enough to buck the trend in her mothers side and try and enter a few trials so that it can be proved that it can be done. It may take me a bit longer as she's my first dog but if I can put the hard work in to training then fingers crossed we can have some fun trying.
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paul spaniel
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Re: The dog or the bitch ?
when i look at a stud it has to have a strong dam line - it also has to be a proven producer - but most importantly i think the bitch has to be worth breeding from, if she has a fancy pedigree that dont mean nothing if she aint upto the job..liverandwhite wrote:Which do people put more emphasis on in their breeding plans. The dog or the bitch?. Can a super dog/bitch carry a medioca mate?. Now and again a mating out of two non descripts will throw out a world beater, just to let us know that nature is in charge, but generally the best will produce the best. It is also important to me to use the dog/bitch itself not a brother/sister. Myself personally i would go for the best bitch line everytime as my main priority.
Re: The dog or the bitch ?
I was told many years ago that a strong bitch line was the most important and I have followed that advice.
Bill
Bill
Re: The dog or the bitch ?
A strong bitch line, but a prepotent male can be an even sronger influence. The Morgan Horse descended from a Stallion that stamped his stock as if they were clones.
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mac1580
Re: The dog or the bitch ?
spot on mate my dad told me the same and ive always followed that advice ......... it also pays to skip a generation ie look at grannie and granddadpontbeck wrote:I was told many years ago that a strong bitch line was the most important and I have followed that advice.
Bill
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trekmoor
- Member
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- Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:38 am
- Dogs: Too many and not enough !
- Location: Central Scotland
Re: The dog or the bitch ?
The best lab I ever owned was "Trekmoor Tess" her Sires line had just 3 F.T.Ch.s and her Dams was exactly the same. None of these were recent champions.
She won tests and she won trials despite being worked as a beaters dog and a (very!) rough shooting dog. She was bred from only once and produced two pups that went to trialing homes. One of these had 2nds and thirds in Novice trials the other became a field trial champion.
My next best lab was "Auburn Lady" She had a good pedigree but not a spectacular one. She boasted one grandparent on each side that were F.T.Ch. She too won field trials and was an easier dog to control but then she'd had Tess present to do all the "donkey work" at shoots and while picking up. Lady was rarely worked as a beating dog. I preferred the terrifyingly hard going Tess !
As a general rule I think it needs both a dog and a bitch carrying good genes to produce a good gundog. I agree that a good look back at grandsires and grand dams is worthwhile . I think that extra spark that makes the difference between a good dog and a great one often does skip a generation.
Wullie
She won tests and she won trials despite being worked as a beaters dog and a (very!) rough shooting dog. She was bred from only once and produced two pups that went to trialing homes. One of these had 2nds and thirds in Novice trials the other became a field trial champion.
My next best lab was "Auburn Lady" She had a good pedigree but not a spectacular one. She boasted one grandparent on each side that were F.T.Ch. She too won field trials and was an easier dog to control but then she'd had Tess present to do all the "donkey work" at shoots and while picking up. Lady was rarely worked as a beating dog. I preferred the terrifyingly hard going Tess !
As a general rule I think it needs both a dog and a bitch carrying good genes to produce a good gundog. I agree that a good look back at grandsires and grand dams is worthwhile . I think that extra spark that makes the difference between a good dog and a great one often does skip a generation.
Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
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Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
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Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
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Re: The dog or the bitch ?
If you want 'what you see'?, then go to what produced 'what you see' 
If you think', you will get what you want 'from what you see', ? then you ''don't see''
Well thats what my Grandad said ,an I aint arguing with im', even though he's 6 foot under
If you think', you will get what you want 'from what you see', ? then you ''don't see''
Well thats what my Grandad said ,an I aint arguing with im', even though he's 6 foot under
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DesO'Neile
Re: The dog or the bitch ?
I started my own line in 1991 and it was done in a way that I would never contemplate doing again, even though it worked.
I bred this bitch that was no more than twenty one inches at the shoulder but could run like a whippet to this dog who was nearly twenty eight inches at the shoulder, had great game sense but couldn't run out of your way.
They produced this dog.
F.T.Ch. Prince of Darkness.(Roi) He was 28" at the shoulder, could run very fast and had game sense to die for.
I don't believe that you can breed two dispirate types and hope to come up with the average with a successful outcome being anything other than luck.
I haven't a photo of the dog she was bred to next but he was much more her type but she still produced this maniac.
F.T.Ch. Bold as Brass.
Roi was the more successful of the two as in fact he qualified to be an Int.F.T.Ch. but a wee twisted streak meant I never claimed his IKC title. However if you wanted to find the last grouse in Scotland Bold would have been the dog to take.
My experiences breeding have me now following this line. First off I buy the very best I can afford. No matter how good the pedigree both dam and sire must have proved themselves in the field before considering a mating. I try to match the physical type of the sire and dam and I find I get the brain from the bitch and the brawn from the dog. In other words I choose the bitch for her temperament and her game sense and the dog for the conformation and again temperament. I shy away from bitches with a history of caesarian deliveries and uneven seasons. Even when I have produced the pups their place in the future breeding programme isn't assured until they have proved themselves as well.
The answer to the original question is that really both the dam and the sire must be up to standard. One might be better than the other but they both need to be good.
I bred this bitch that was no more than twenty one inches at the shoulder but could run like a whippet to this dog who was nearly twenty eight inches at the shoulder, had great game sense but couldn't run out of your way.
They produced this dog.
F.T.Ch. Prince of Darkness.(Roi) He was 28" at the shoulder, could run very fast and had game sense to die for.
I don't believe that you can breed two dispirate types and hope to come up with the average with a successful outcome being anything other than luck.
I haven't a photo of the dog she was bred to next but he was much more her type but she still produced this maniac.
F.T.Ch. Bold as Brass.
Roi was the more successful of the two as in fact he qualified to be an Int.F.T.Ch. but a wee twisted streak meant I never claimed his IKC title. However if you wanted to find the last grouse in Scotland Bold would have been the dog to take.
My experiences breeding have me now following this line. First off I buy the very best I can afford. No matter how good the pedigree both dam and sire must have proved themselves in the field before considering a mating. I try to match the physical type of the sire and dam and I find I get the brain from the bitch and the brawn from the dog. In other words I choose the bitch for her temperament and her game sense and the dog for the conformation and again temperament. I shy away from bitches with a history of caesarian deliveries and uneven seasons. Even when I have produced the pups their place in the future breeding programme isn't assured until they have proved themselves as well.
The answer to the original question is that really both the dam and the sire must be up to standard. One might be better than the other but they both need to be good.