Improving the breed..........

[kelco]

Over the past number of years I have got a bit disillusioned with springers. Don't get me wrong, I’m looking out the window here at 5 and love them and the challenge of training them, shooting over them and trying to breed/buy better ones. But there are a lot of springers out there and a lot of them are crap and are of no benefit to the breed(as working/trail dogs).I appreciate a good working dog every bit as much as a good trailing dog(to be honest probably more) :

There is a lot of shit being bred (apologies for the language).People are breeding off average/poor bitches sometimes to good dogs (FTCHs/FTW/Straight working dogs) which is a lottery for the next generation and many more after. Even worse they are breeding off poor bitches to poor dogs which is worse again!!!!!!

Now b4 I am savaged to death via replies. There are a lot of people that really try to" breed better" and I like to think that I am in that category. It doesn’t guarantee success but good intention and good evaluation of the results is to be admired.

Trailing is a great shop window for assessing quality breeding stock both dogs and bitches.Why is this?
In a trail a dog is assessed on all the characteristics that we desire in a hunting spaniel (in theory)
When I buy a dog I try to that it nearly all trail breeding because I have seen a lot of dogs running in trials over the past ten years and can make a judgement (for myself) on them.Thats not to say that there are not even better working dogs out there that would be better to consider but it is virtually imposable to identify them and judge any non trial ancestry.

Idea. (brainstorm) Bare with me this is a bit long winded...........

Why don’t we take a leaf out of other areas that breed for improvement?

Why don't we performance test our breed and grade our best breeding stock.FTCH's/FTW and trialling dogs are this. But not everyone is into or cut out for trialling.

Performance test dogs+bitches.
Example.1
Test them over 5 one day tests each focusing one area.

Day 1 -Basic live game hunting test-looking for drive,pace,style and obedience on live game(ie. rabbit/pheasant pen) for min 20mins constant hunting. Grade A-C with a no grade possible.

Day 2 -Basic Retrieving/retrieving obedience.lefts/rights/blinds/obstacles all on cold game. Grade A-C with a no grade possible.

Day 3-Full Vet medical-Conformation/genetic testing for eyes/hips/etc. Fertility test?????? Grade A-C with a no grade possible.

Day 4-Advanced hunting test in the form of rough shooting/Beating day where each dog is assessed for 30 mins hard hunting/steadiness/noise etc.Grade A-C with a no grade possible.

Day 5-Advanced Retrieving-Multiple retrieves in work day/Driven/rough-shooting Min 6 retrieves.Grade A-C with a no grade possible.

Day 4+5 could be combined??????

Dogs would be graded right from after the first test.An A score would be an A1.
2 days with an A score would be an A2

The max score that a dog could have after 5 tests would be an A5. (The highest standard achievable)
A dog with 3 As and 2Bs would be and A3 Dog and so on.
Each fully performance tested dog would have a passport with their Grades.These grades would give the breeder the opportunity to breed for improvement in weak areas and the Stud owner to assess the bitches that his dog covers and the buyer to gauge the quality of the pup that he/she is thinking of buying.

You could do the tests over 2yrs with no time limit. If a person thought that their dog was of good quality but was not the best trainer in the world they could give it to a pro to train+run in the performance tests????

I would bet that this would up the standard of dogs among the really committed spaniel people. It would also act as a stepping stone into trialling. A dog that did well in the 2 basic tests should be well capable of a novice if the owner wanted and a dog that had scored well in the full 5 day test should be well capable of an open.

Use experienced trial judges.Have a standards board that appoint judges for each test and ensure that no judge is judging a dog that he/she bred.

Allocate a test ref number to each dog that is the sole identification for that dog for all tests under all judges.No judge would be aware of test dog pedigree and would have to judge a dog on performance only?????

Bit of a long one but I would be keen to know what you guys think.(lets pretend for this chat that there is no dishonesty , no favouritisim , no politics )

[scot-ish]

i dont think it would ever work

first thing you seemed to overlook is the fact that not every spaniel is a working dog, and imho, for this to work, that would have to be the case.

the part about a judge not knowing the pedigree etc, would never work, in todays day and age, you can find anything about anything, and dogs talked about, people quickly learn about there breeding etc.

another part is, you havent said, that a dog would have to gain a certain level, to breed from it? im assuming this is the sole target of your post??? which IMHO would have the same standings as FTCH, as you know a dog has performed to a certain standard a few times, if its a FTCH, thats why people are using them.

the main reason for what you call "poor breeding" is money, if you havea bitch, and you want a litter, using a top FTCH as stud, will help the sale of the litter, wether the dog suits the bitch or not, it will help sell the pups, advertising the FTCH, and "good working bitch" i see it all the time.

[Pink Gundog]

I have seen it all too, people breeding for no apparant reason, using top FTCH studs to produce dogs for the pet market!! The topic could go on and on!! I just know the work we do in rescue, taking on these poor buggars who have been bred for numerous reasons!! People should think shame on themselves!! Id love a pound for every tom DICK & harry ive heard saying they are taking a litter of their bitch!! Does my head in half the time!! leave the breeding for those who have every aspect of knowledge, care & back up!!

[kelco]

i dont think it would ever work

first thing you seemed to overlook is the fact that not every spaniel is a working dog, and imho, for this to work, that would have to be the case.

the part about a judge not knowing the pedigree etc, would never work, in todays day and age, you can find anything about anything, and dogs talked about, people quickly learn about there breeding etc.

another part is, you havent said, that a dog would have to gain a certain level, to breed from it? im assuming this is the sole target of your post??? which IMHO would have the same standings as FTCH, as you know a dog has performed to a certain standard a few times, if its a FTCH, thats why people are using them.

the main reason for what you call "poor breeding" is money, if you havea bitch, and you want a litter, using a top FTCH as stud, will help the sale of the litter, wether the dog suits the bitch or not, it will help sell the pups, advertising the FTCH, and "good working bitch" i see it all the time.

I know that it is blue sky thinking but I dont think that you would have to do it for all spaniels.

If you want to by a German Shepard as working guard dog you can check if the parents have attained Schutzhund levels 1-3.(its a type of performance test)They also blood type all breeding dogs.

If you want to stand an Irish Draught, Connemara, Hanovarion stallion with any success they have to be performance tested.Mated to "Premium(tested) Mares the stock are notably more valuable as competition/breeding animals.

I would'nt see the above idea as a total breed idea.I would see this as a way of developing higher standards of breeding by committed working Spaniel people.I have been slightly involved in this in horses and found that it created higher standards of breeding.One premium breeding mare is worth 10 shit ones.and I have to admit that as a rule the vast majority of offspring bred out of premium stock in horses make it to a reasonable level as competing/breeding animals.

There will always be people who think that there is a quick buck in breeding and do damage but I think that if there is a quality breeding system in place it eventually make poorly bred animals worthless.

I enjoy trialling and trialling people but can see how the ordinary shooting man would see it as intimidating maybe even elitist .I just wonder are we losing out on some quality dogs and quality dog people by having trialling as our only measure of quality.

[arwesa]

schutzund is afaik part of the working trials family of achievements, for that world the equivalent of our field trials.

perhaps working tests have a role to play, but like scot-ish I struggle to see what in addition you could add to be workable. at the end of the day anyone who can be bothered to train their dog to a suitable standard can enter working tests and trials to prove their dogs ability.

I guess youre idea could be a third and lower level of 'proof' of ability, but if someone cant be bothered to do tests why would they do this? and pay for it...

just edited to say, if only the gundog club training/exam scheme were handed over to the KC...it could provide the structure and proof/testing youre thinking of, except for live game.

[Judy]

The Flatcoated Retriever Society tried this with their Shooting Dog Certificate, you could take your dog to a normal shoot day and have it assessed by a FT judge, there used to be two standards an A certificate and a B cert. To gain an A the dog had to be off lead all day, B's could be on. The dogs had to be quiet and under control all day, demonstrate soft mouth and game finding ability. In other words, be half decent picking up dogs! Seems like a good idea to me. I understand its been made easier now, there is only one grade whether the dog is on or off lead all day. This at least gives people an idea of how well the dogs work.

The Kennel Club emulated it with two levels, the lower was on dummies and the higher on game, don't think it caught on!

Its a pity really as a 'good working bitch' could sing like Kiri and mangle every other bird but still be considered great by her owner. A dog doesn't have to be a trial winner to be an asset to the gene pool but the only way of assessing the dog's ability is to test it in the field.

Judy

[kelco]

Its a pity really as a 'good working bitch' could sing like Kiri and mangle every other bird but still be considered great by her owner. A dog doesn't have to be a trial winner to be an asset to the gene pool but the only way of assessing the dog's ability is to test it in the field.

Judy[/quote]

Now I'm going to" throw the cat amoung the pigeons"HaHa

Maybe we need more than trials to assess quality. I bought pups from what from some very notable field trial lines and got some very "kinky pups".2 or 3 formed a band to sing on X Factor(singing machines ) one other thought about every 3rd retrieve was a trip to KFC!(a crocodile)

That is why I'm a bit Disillusioned............. Are there any straight lines left?????????

[Judy]

You can put FTCh to FTCh and the Power that mixes the genes can still have the last laugh, you're just, possibly, improving your chances of getting a 'better' dog by doing it.

[kelco]

You can put FTCh to FTCh and the Power that mixes the genes can still have the last laugh, you're just, possibly, improving your chances of getting a 'better' dog by doing it.

I have to admit Judy I've got more good than bad from the trial lines.Have quite a good one now out of Misslechalke Lad out of a Rytex Bitch. Don't know if he'll win any trials but he is an all round quality dog.

[liverandwhite]

In theory the only matings that should be allowed are the ones that would improve the breed. In reality we will always be a million miles away from that. You are 100% correct when you said there is a lot of rubbish out there. I would say most of it!. The well bred, but poor, bitch to the ftch stud will always be a step backwards for the working breeds. If you look at this site ,and they are all the same, you have to question some of the breeding plans. Breed the best to the best and then hope for the best is all you can do.