Improving the breed..........

[Hepe]

Old? It all depends on what you call old? Middle aged I would say. I have 3 Belg FT ch bitches and 2 Int Ftch Bitches in homologation in my Kennels. Alive and kicking.
That Irish woodcockgrounds don't always allow to get in and get close. Those rather steep slopes of these valleys full of thorns, don't allow you to get in yourself. You stand in the bottom and wait till the dogs push a bird and hope it comes in shotgun range. Spaniel work at his best.
I imported diffrent dogs from diffrent lines ( about 5 or 6 ) from the UK and up to know all were disapointments. I like a 4/5 month old pup, the moment he scents game, enter cover(brambles) and hunt it. If he did that 3/4 times I don't want to click him in again. I want him to hunt the cover without any stimulation and without me encouraging him to get in.
That's what almost all Bridevalleys, that I saw, did.

I apologize, i didn't mean to offend you about your age (which i know nothing about at all of course). It's clear you like this line of dogs and you made me curious enough to go see if we got something of that line here i can peek at and see for myself eventually. We would probably agree on what a good spaniel is at the end of the day but your post hit a sore point with me. I DO like stories from the past about dogs and people making what we got now but i don't like the idea of going backwards. I probably read too much into your post after meeting one too many of those very opinionated men (occasionally a woman) claiming they got the only good dogs in the country. I'm glad you found a line of dogs you like suitable for the grounds you hunt.

Helene

[madrags]

Is there anyone here that has had a bitch rejected by the owner of the stud dog, and, if so, was a reason given?
People will breed not just for field trials, and why not - providing that they are prepared to find suitable homes. The person that used Rowf on her bitch chose him mainly because he combines hard hunting with a very laid back nature - my dad refers to him as "a real shooting man's dog". 6 of the 8 pups have gone to working homes, the other 2 to very active pet homes. Would she have been better off to put the bitch to a fiery trials dog, and would the new owners have coped with the pups?

[James]

I've just turned down a bitch. The owner who is a friend of mine did take offence but that's life.

[arwesa]

would be intresting to know why? good on you btw .

[L80PJE]

I had a lady in the pub wanting to use my springer to her bitch as she thought they would compliment each other well. She has a pitbull / bull terrier type thing.
I almost dropped my beer and struggled to keep a straight face. Anyway, i'm now £400 better off..................... joke.

[Canburne]

Having read this whole thread my impression is that the concept of these tests is just pure laziness - just a simple way of trying to avoid doing all the research you ought to do before you make a selection of which stud dog to use or puupy to choose. You will not stop people trying to make a buck out of breeding nor will you stop theses 'judges' putting forward the style of dog they like either. And just because your two chosen dogs for mating have the highest possible scores (including in their health tests) doesn't mean they won't be totally unsuitable in respect of the progeny they produce either for working ability or for health reasons.

[arwesa]

Having read this whole thread my impression is that the concept of these tests is just pure laziness - just a simple way of trying to avoid doing all the research you ought to do before you make a selection of which stud dog to use or puupy to choose. You will not stop people trying to make a buck out of breeding nor will you stop theses 'judges' putting forward the style of dog they like either. And just because your two chosen dogs for mating have the highest possible scores (including in their health tests) doesn't mean they won't be totally unsuitable in respect of the progeny they produce either for working ability or for health reasons.

thats put everyone in their place ..... so whats the answer then

[Canburne]

Like I said 'doing your research'. One of the best bits of advice I ever got was that if you see a dog working that you really like and the breeding fits then go back and use the father of that dog - at least you will have first hand knowledge of the types of pups he is throwing.

[kelco]

Having read this whole thread my impression is that the concept of these tests is just pure laziness - just a simple way of trying to avoid doing all the research you ought to do before you make a selection of which stud dog to use or puupy to choose. You will not stop people trying to make a buck out of breeding nor will you stop theses 'judges' putting forward the style of dog they like either. And just because your two chosen dogs for mating have the highest possible scores (including in their health tests) doesn't mean they won't be totally unsuitable in respect of the progeny they produce either for working ability or for health reasons.

Sorry but it does not put me in my place.(I am a headstrong B*ST*RD )

I don't agree at all that the theory of performance testing dogs is a laziness.How could it be lazy to make the commitment/investment to go through a grading procedure. It would also compliment people doing the research because it may give numerous breeding options and not just FTCHs/FTWs.If and its a big if(granted) there was a honest/responsible/comprehensive way to performance test spaniels it would give us a bigger pool of assessed dogs to choose from.It would be interesting to see how tested"no trial dogs performed as sires and dams" v's trial dogs.

As for research-this site is full of new comers to gundogs looking for advice on training and breeding.All site members that I have seen try to give the best advice possible but very few are going to say outright that "kelco's" line has crunchers/barkers/the stud person is in it for the money purely/he or she is dishonest.So where do these newcomers do their research.
They can watch trials/trial dvds as a lot of us do but that dos'nt tell you all you need to know.I don't claim to know a lot about breeding but I do know that I have got rid of a lot of "very well bred dogs" that didn't cut the mustard.I have spent thousand of pounds and thousands of hours looking for the class animal.

If there was a "robust form of performance testing" I would be at every test (doing my research)checking the quality of stock that wasn't turning up at the trials(that I attend/compete).I would buying a quality trained animal(if I could) there rather than buying FTCH-FTCH/FTW pups for big money and waiting a year to 18 month to find out that they were not up to scratch(+i am back to square one-maybe a little wiser?)

I think that all working bitches and dogs should have to "passed" to be bred off and registered as "working" springer/lab/cocker etc.If peoples dogs are good enough they would have nothing to fear.I personally would be happy to put any dog or bitch that I own through such a test...................

[elcourtbayspringers]

Back in the day I used to always use the sire of a 'fresh' FTCH rather than that dog as it gives you a good heads up of what kind of prodegy it throws.
There is always a mad rush to use this years top dog and it ain't cheap, but I always think thats a bit of a gamble as until its proved you don't know what you may get, you know what dad throws!! just a tip from an old fart!!