What is a TOP STUD DOG??????

[pontbeck]

Well done Scottish and July.
This thread seems to look for guaranties for a suitable stud dog,which will never happen.
There are statistics, statisticts and bloody statistics.that's no way to choose a stud dog for your bitch.If you didn't breed your bitch,ask the breeder for his advice.
The more experience you gain,the less you need to ask.



Bill

[James]

just out of interest, how much are you willing to pay for that service? Before thinking about breeding, if people are that interested, why dont they just get out there and see whats going on and learn for them selves, rather than just expecting others to do the work for them. By training and trialing your dogs you will pick up on whats what, after all this has worked very well upto now!

[arwesa]

we already pay the KC in lots of ways, but Id pay an annual fee for access sure.

I think maybe Im not making myself as clear as I could, Im not advocating making a decision by numbers... I just feel everyone would benefit from access to the real info. then we wouldnt have all unfounded comments about xxx stud dogs ruining the breed etc. as the facts would be available to prove breeding COIs, what dog is really siring higher than ave. winners etc.

Ive also not seen anyone suggest the point to any of this is to guarentee anything, thats an impossibility, but in the same way you breed from the best to increase your chances, being able to identify in even more detail where one dog is better than another can surely only be a good thing to help you make your decisions?

[scot-ish]

I've no idea if my dog will make it...I believe she will, her breeder believes she will, I think I may have made a comment at some point about how another pro trainer I went to made a generalisation after 20 mins which he has since changed his mind on (point being dogs dont always do their best when in strange places and very young), or you may be referring to the other comment I may have made about a championship winning bitch that the trainer was told by another very famous trainer to 'move her on' at 14 months....

i aint sure which one lol, i just remember that some of the top guys do get it wrong, whereas we, the lesser haha, have to persevere with it, even if it is just for the sake of learning/experience.

As for the 'that dog would have trialled comment'....I hear guns saying that about every peg dog mutt just for picking up a bird...I dont think you can base an argument on shoot day niceties.

My "argument" wasnt based on this, but instead just an example of how even having all the info, still wouldnt make it easier for people.

The measure of a top stud dog should be producing top dogs which prove they are top dogs. for triallers thats trial results. health scores etc. are another angle for some, in both cases being able to look at all aspects is important. you dont choose your stud from pedigree and paper results alone, but surely youre better off with a balance of all. as it is the KC is restricting that balancethrough not opening up information and in so doing isnt helping its own desires to improve genetic diversity in all breeding.

i agree, a top Stud dog, is a dog which Produces top offspring, not having to be trial winners, because every pup of every litter is not sold on to the top men, so not all dogs have the same chance. if i seen a dog i really liked ona shoot, and i thought it hunted like a demon, but lacked control or something else, i would still happily use that dog on a bitch of mine, if i thought they suited, wether the pedigree was Red or not.

for me, i wouldnt use a dog that i hadnt seen a few times, wether it be on advice from someone else to use, or because its the top sire at the time.

just to point out, i am not arguing with you, that the KC shouldnt list all the info that they can, but i just dont think its the be all and end all, to do well in trialling, breeding or anything else gundog related, you have to put alot of effort in, and ive already realised that, but only 9 months ago, i honestly thought i could trial a dog no bother, now, i think it will maybe take me a 5 years, to even churn out a FTW, if i even get to that level.

[Rookie]

None of this changes the fact that ones persons ideal dog could turn out to be the next persons worst nightmare on legs.

I've got someone wanting to do a 1,000 mile round trip to use one of my dogs. They'll be driving past a heck of a lot of fantastic dogs on that journey.

I've struggled to train that dog and it'll never be perfect but they're chuffed to bits with how the pups from the first litter have come on so far and reckon they're much better than the bitch's first litter by a different dog. I'll be doing some research on the pups when they're a bit older before I agree to let them use my dog for a second time. I don't know whether I could have made a decont job of training one of his pups and I've wished the owners of those pups Good Luck!

I'm desperate for a pup out a bitch whom I'm sure a lot of you would place on the list of "rubbish bitches" but, for the moment, that's my dream dog and right now it seems as though I've been waiting a very long time for it. There are others who have been waiting for up to two years so it's not just me that holds her in high regard. However, none of them are folk who trial.

P.S. I'm not anti-trialling, I have hopes and aspirations of being able to train a dog to that level, hopefully, one day.

[Sgurr]

i didnt want to be the one to mention that..... but i dont see none of the top people bragging about health tests, im all for them, but its the same people banging on about it in every thread.

i have a kennel of 8 dogs, 5 of which are bitches, one is not old enough to breed from, and from the other 4, i only have one labrador i would breed from, and she is now 6, so its looking quite unlikley.

If you look at ads for lab litters you will see FTCH x FTCH and 0-0 x 0-0 hips being shown as very desirable - the lab breeders have been working for 20- 30 years to stop the breed going down the pan so I don't think it is bragging about health tests, it is a statement of achievement for the top breeders/handlers in two very important areas: working ability and health. Temperament, to me the most important in any dog, cannot be so quantified.

Banging on,

Sgurr

[pontbeck]

just out of interest, how much are you willing to pay for that service? Before thinking about breeding, if people are that interested, why dont they just get out there and see whats going on and learn for them selves, rather than just expecting others to do the work for them. By training and trialing your dogs you will pick up on whats what, after all this has worked very well upto now!

[CROFTPLACESPANIELS]

i didnt want to be the one to mention that..... but i dont see none of the top people bragging about health tests, im all for them, but its the same people banging on about it in every thread.

i have a kennel of 8 dogs, 5 of which are bitches, one is not old enough to breed from, and from the other 4, i only have one labrador i would breed from, and she is now 6, so its looking quite unlikley.

If you look at ads for lab litters you will see FTCH x FTCH and 0-0 x 0-0 hips being shown as very desirable - the lab breeders have been working for 20- 30 years to stop the breed going down the pan so I don't think it is bragging about health tests, it is a statement of achievement for the top breeders/handlers in two very important areas: working ability and health. Temperament, to me the most important in any dog, cannot be so quantified.

Banging on,

Sgurr

Thanks Enid for the example, I See it as the future. Thats what I'm aiming at Fully Health tested Trialling dogs.
I have spoke to a few triallers that feel dogs do not need testing because they trial really well. Apart from the hips the other health tests don't alway affect the dogs when young.

[scot-ish]

if that is the case, then firstly, i think the trialling is the important part, as its proved over the last however many years.

i havent mentioned labs in this thread, i know its been a long time coming, and has came good with them, and hips are important, but hip testing isnt the one people are always banging on about, its the other test, and it always turns into "well my dog is health tested" kind of thread, or another one is "there are only X amount of spaniel lines tested in the UK, and I've got blah blah amount"

dont you think once more dogs become health tested, your angle into the dog selling market will soon be more difficult for you to make a business from, as there will be a wider range of dogs with the same tests, and there will be more dogs, who are better proven in the Field Trial Circuit, making a dog which is "health tested, and a good worker" less likely to pull stud fees.

just a thought.

[CROFTPLACESPANIELS]

if that is the case, then firstly, i think the trialling is the important part, as its proved over the last however many years.

i havent mentioned labs in this thread, i know its been a long time coming, and has came good with them, and hips are important, but hip testing isnt the one people are always banging on about, its the other test, and it always turns into "well my dog is health tested" kind of thread, or another one is "there are only X amount of spaniel lines tested in the UK, and I've got blah blah amount"

dont you think once more dogs become health tested, your angle into the dog selling market will soon be more difficult for you to make a business from, as there will be a wider range of dogs with the same tests, and there will be more dogs, who are better proven in the Field Trial Circuit, making a dog which is "health tested, and a good worker" less likely to pull stud fees.

just a thought.

Firstly its not a business , but a hobby. Yes selling will become more difficult when there is more breeders health testing. But I'm not bothered about selling pups, I would breed less if I couldnt find good homes for them. If a stud dog was fully health tested & proven in the field trial circuit: Good health test results, everyone is a winner offspring produced by the stud dog will also be passed good genes. Bad health test results, breeders would be more selectful to which stud they use, ignoring the studs with bad results and look at the better proven on the field trial circuit producing healthier pups. As a breeder I wouldnt breed from a dog or bitch that I know would produce pups with bad health genes.

If everyone tested their dogs & bitches they pass on herditary healthy genes to the pups so the pups wont need all the same tests just hips & eyes if the pup mates with another Hereditray clear pup (obviously when they are old enough) again they pass on clear genes to their off spring. Wants it catches on alot of pups would be come more hereditary clear than need testing.

Unfortunatly there is a company that you can send off Health test results that dont publish them so if breeders dont like the results they can hide them to make their line look better than it is. I do all mine through Animal Health Trust and they are sent to the kennel club and published on their website.

I do feel that 90% of people wouldnt take an intrest in Health testing until one of thier dogs is found to have it.
They way I see it is I wouldnt like to be breeding from a dog and a bitch to find 3 - 4 years down the line one of them has to be put down by a hereditary disease that could haqve been health tested. Could you imagine phoning the puppy buyers that bought pups from the litters prodcued by that dog or bitch to tell them there dog could have the same problem.