Mating a half brother to a half sister.

[scot-ish]

all our dogs are inbred, just some more than others..

now you agree with a statement that you disagreed with, only 20 minutes ago. here it is here.

Along the wayyou've made spurious accusations about me, attempted to decry and belittle people views based on 'overwhelming' evidence of others achievements... repeatedly you are given evidence contrary to your assertions that the TOP breeders have kennels full of inbred dogs (yes they are the odd dog out there but on the whole its not the case )

so you get a ftch and then test?....its got poor hips and PRA carrier?....so you breed from it anyway? or scrap the dog from your breeding program?

you part train, like what you see, then test to establish what you have will be worthy of breeding health wise, then you put the effort and money into it to fully train. (assuming its bought in)

if its poor, then you dont breed from it, simple as. but if its hips were poor, after 2 seasons working( thats realistically how long it would take a very good dog to be made up) i think in two years poor hips would be noticed.

i wouldnt do it like that, i would like to completely train a dog, make sure it can prove itself, its very easy for a dog to drop off near the end of training, and then not be the finished article you expected, i think its safer to wait untill the dog is very near training completion, otherwise you could waste alot of money on health testing a dog which isnt really worth its stud fee.

[scot-ish]

oh aye, your an accredited breeder, forgot that. So are so of the trialling kennels

how many top sire do you know, who have been line bred, are dying after a couple of years. its all "if and but" but there is no real proof of it happening, just people banging on about how it could happen.

what i have said is, the COI will not influence the choice of stud between a couple of dogs, all dogs are different, and i wouldnt use COI to make the decision, i would find why i thought one dog was better suited to my bitch, than all the others, be it number of succesfull offspring, age, or something else.

and i agree with T jack, if you have a dog who is "health tested" your already breeding from him, yet the dog is still in training, and your just looking at entering novices with it. i think that is the wrong way around, the dog has to prove itself in the field before it should be considered to be bred from, then test the dog, if thats what suits you. but dont test a young dog, with a plan to breed from it, without even knowing if the dog is hardmouthed, whines or anything else. otherwise its all about money, and not really about the direction the breeding is going.

Just to put you in the picture the dog I'm looking at going in to Novices' was bought from a trialling/ working kennels and they had started the Health testing of him. The reason we are in novices is because I have just started out working the dog and getting him used to me handling him.

So for you idea of Train him, Test Him, Stud him. He has already been down that route. Until you know enough about me I would like you not make assumptions to try and tell me I'm breeding to make money. When actually the dog I'm training has followed your thoughts on this thread does that means you breed for Money or do you owe me an apology.

i dont "breed", nor have i put any of my dogs to stud, or taken a litter from them, unless i planned to keep a pup to myself, i have never had a litter in 15 years which i dont still have a dog belonging to that litter.

why do you breed dogs? honestly? do you have a pup from each litter youve had? or have you sold all them?

this is from your website

Poppy will be trained as a gundog for hopefully entering trials and will become one of our breeding bitches in the future. Check out our Spaniels page for more details.

this is a pup, and already you've stated this dog will become one of your breeding bitches, yet you have no idea how this dog will turn out???

[Rascal]

Anyone dizzy yet?

Think you guys need to take a chill pill and or pop down the pub for a nice cool beer,

you seem to be going round in circles and getting nowhere to me.

Rascal

[arwesa]

Scotish. If you read my posts youll see I believe 6 to 12% to be 'acceptable' and my target range for my future litters..... again youre trying to pick and twist...all the 'top' breeders I mentioned and gave examples of had dogs within that range (and some better).

Perhaps it would have been clearer for someone who is looking for arguments instead of trying to debate the overall issue if I had more accurately used the following........'repeatedly you are given evidence contrary to your assertions that the TOP breeders have kennels full of excessively inbred dogs (yes they are the odd dog out there but on the whole its not the case )' however I would have thought the bit in brackets would have made what I was saying obvious to all but those who are being pedantic.



If a dogs not healthy I dont want to wast my time and money working and training it, it costs far more to keep a dog for 6 months than it does to fully health test one, ignoring training time, training days etc. etc. I really wonder if somoene who doesnt really care about health would get a dog to ftch and then refuse to use it for breeding when they found it was a carrier or had poor hips?.....or would they bury their head in the sand and say 'its a ftch and never had a days off in 4 years of course its healthy'? Its a hell of a risk loosing all the stud fees if a test comes back positive...

[CROFTPLACESPANIELS]

The big word your missing in the whole sentence is HOPEFULLY!! If she doesn't turn out well she wouldn't be.

Your sentence above is contradicting
i dont "breed", nor have i put any of my dogs to stud, or taken a litter from them, unless i planned to keep a pup to myself, i have never had a litter in 15 years which i dont still have a dog belonging to that litter.

This thread has been made personal because someone didn't like what others have been debating about.

Also you must have a problem with me this is what you said to me on my welcome thread.

Re: Newish on Here
by scot-ish » 26 Feb 2011, 17:54

welcome along.

do you just plan to be a breeder? or are you interested in shooting, and working the dog?

i ask, as ive had a look on your website, and it seems more business orientated, with regard to breeding, and not shooting.

just to let you know, his pedigree is not avaialbe on your webiste, the link shows a picture of the dog, but no pedigree

[scot-ish]

nothing of the kind, i just think from your webiste, and the posts i see, you are breeding to sell health tested dogs, and plan breeding without knowing how good the dog is.

to me the word Hopefully relates to the Trialing part, and "WILL" become one of our breeding bitches. so it seems like the dogs future is already set as a broody bitch.

my problem is not with yourself, its with breeding for profit and nothing else, this is what is causing problems in the breeds. im not saying you are doing this, i only asked what it was your plans were, as i asked when you joined.

and seen as were digging posts up

I forgot to say I dont see breeding as business just a hobby I do if I feel i can get the pups sold on to long last good caring homes. As a breeder I feel that more testing could be done by others that breed to stop defects forming in breeds.

Cheers

Scott

this was a reply to the post youve quoted, why just not breed, then there are less pups which need to be sold on the good caring homes.

I was planning on keeping a bitch from the litter to train & use for trialing & breeding when Megan retires, Pepper & Megan would make a great line between them.

this was a reply about not being able to use pepper. note, this was another bitch pup you wanted to keep on to breed from, with nothing mentioned on how good of a worked the dog became.

these are not perosnal attacks, just i think what you say with regards to not doing it for profit, contradicts the ways you are towards getting bitches for breeding.

[CROFTPLACESPANIELS]

I find your ability to twist words hugely annoying. NO ONE is saying linebreeding is wrong if done responsibly. NO ONE has once said the last 50 years champs are wrong and causing problems, yet you choose to make things up as if someone is making these acusations.... the thread orininaly started about close matings...you will see some view inbreeding as a complete no no others (like me) see it as required as long as you can maintain genetic health and there are some who seem to believe in best to best and forget inbreeding.

Along the way you've made spurious accusations about me, attempted to decry and belittle people views based on 'overwhelming' evidence of others achievements... repeatedly you are given evidence contrary to your assertions that the TOP breeders have kennels full of inbred dogs (yes they are the odd dog out there but on the whole its not the case ) or the TOP dogs are heavily line bred, yet some of the most used modern day sires have very low COI

I agree. And I'm switching off.

Just to reiterate-
by CROFTPLACESPANIELS » Today, 12:24

I think we are all going to have to agree to disagree. I can see the point of of line breeding but I feel the breeders doing it need to know there stuff and know about the history of the offspring that line has bred. I haven't looked to much into the mate select idea yet. But I would have thought if the kennel club has put a maximum COI they must have been advised by a group of experts.
The same applies to Health testing and not to Health test at the end of the day its the breeders decision to produce a litter to fit there criteria. The kennel club have came up with the Accredited breeder scheme and mate select to give breeders more information to make an informed decision.

A forum is for expressing and discussing differing views. We are not all going to agree with each other all the time. Lets stop pushing them down each others throats.

[Rascal]

I'm locking this thread to give everyone time to calm down and remember the rules about personal attacks on other forum members.