Gundog Training Forum

mho is that dogs respond better to a self-confident handler. Whether you then interpret that self confidence as something to do with wolves etc is a personal interpretation, and means nothing to the dog.

So why do some people almost immediately "dominate" many of the dogs they encounter and somehow "make" those dogs want to be with them if not work for them ?
It isn't because that person feeds them or cuddles them , I think dogs just feel safer ...happier ? ..... with a positive type of person.

Wullie

I think you're right, Wullie (Oh good grief) but some people see dominance as an excuse to bully the dog, throw it down in alpha rolls and pin downs and other such rubbish, rather than simply being the calm confident leader / guide who gets the dog to do what they want without any macho nonsense. Positive, self confident, yes, macho no. Sort of like a Mother then, bossy but generally kind. OK, not above reading the riot act with the teenagers too...

Agree with pg and Polmaise. Crucial distinction! Woof!

trekmoor wrote:So why do some people almost immediately "dominate" many of the dogs they encounter and somehow "make" those dogs want to be with them if not work for them ?
It isn't because that person feeds them or cuddles them , I think dogs just feel safer ...happier ? ..... with a positive type of person.

Wullie

I see it as subtle reinforcement of behaviour, and it works from from both ways.

The way I see it is,people I think find it far easier to come down hard and try and be dominant to get an animal or indeed a human to do what they require rather than taking the time and patience to work it out using phsycology. I can relate to having a very strict dominant father as a child, we did everything we were told and did it right away because we were scared not to. However when i reached a certain age I had enough of it and rebelled causing all sorts of mayhem

Horses Never Lie: The Heart of Passive Leadership by Mark Rashid

Yes its about horses, but the concept is the same (or at least I think so)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0715 ... 00_details

Pink Gundog wrote: I can relate to having a very strict dominant father as a child, we did everything we were told and did it right away because we were scared not to. However when i reached a certain age I had enough of it and rebelled causing all sorts of mayhem

I can imagine ! I too had a strict father . I was lucky and he had a sense of fair play and a sense of humour to go along with the strictness and in any case the real ruler of the house was my mother. We messed with her at our peril !
Nuffin's changed ..... my wife rules me instead now and I'm a good boy.

Wullie

trekmoor wrote:

Pink Gundog wrote: I can relate to having a very strict dominant father as a child, we did everything we were told and did it right away because we were scared not to. However when i reached a certain age I had enough of it and rebelled causing all sorts of mayhem

I can imagine ! I too had a strict father . I was lucky and he had a sense of fair play and a sense of humour to go along with the strictness and in any case the real ruler of the house was my mother. We messed with her at our peril !
Nuffin's changed ..... my wife rules me instead now and I'm a good boy.

Wullie

Good boy now However my father was an only child and didnt know how to deal with most situations so there for became dominant. Its the same with animals, people who dont know better use dominance because it comes naturally. Taking a step back and learning how to get animals and people to cooperate using positive methods has a longer standing effect xx

Edited to add: I was a nanny for 3 kids for 17 years and never had a cross word with them and they did everything I asked... why? because as I said Phsycology is a marvelous thing. I know this doesnt seem much to do about dogs but in my way of thinking it does

People thought that they were using psychology when they stuck to the alpha/packleader mind-set but, as has been described, it was based on observation in a captive, disparate group of wolves that had been thrown together, which is totally different to a pack in the wild. It is also totally different to how domestic dogs behave & interact. In Edwardian/Victorian times I think it also sat well with the notion that we are 'masters of all we survey etc' . The tradition was set & our traditional gundog training is still based on the same false concept that gave rise to compulsive & punishment based methods. Traditionalists still cling on to a belief in being the alpha, because then it justifies any punishment meted out to the dog ... "because that is what the pack leader would do!"

Naj