Bryn wrote:However comparing marathon and sprinters is a bit misleading, they have fundamental differences in their muscle fibres which determines which event they are best at, the type and proportion of these is formed during developement of the foetus and determined to a certain large extent by genetics.
What utter tosh. They don’t have fundamental differences in muscle fibres from birth; they haven’t done any physical activity to establish them. Short bursts of high weight/intensity exercise will eventually give you fast-twitch muscle fibres, which in turn, gives you lots of strength and power in short bursts. Long sessions of low intensity exercise (e.g. hill running) will eventually give you slow-twitch muscle fibres- which in turn give you lots of stamina and endurance.
The effect of maternal undernutrition before muscle differentiation on the muscle fiber development of the newborn lamb.
Fahey AJ, Brameld JM, Parr T, Buttery PJ.
Source
Division of Nutritional Sciences, School of Biosciences, Sutton Bonington Campus, The University of Nottingham, Leicestershire, LE12 5RD, United Kingdom.
Abstract
There is a need to improve the lean tissue content of ruminant animals destined for meat production. Muscle fiber number is set during fetal development. The effect of undernutrition of pregnant ewes on subsequent muscle fiber characteristics of their offspring was investigated. The trial involved 32 pregnant ewes carrying twins. The ewes were allocated randomly to one of four groups: three different treatment groups (n = 8) and a control group (n = 8). The diet of the treatment groups was dropped to 50% of their daily requirement to support the ewe and allow for conceptus growth for varying periods before being returned to 100% of their daily requirement until term. Group d 30-70 ewes were fed 100% of their daily requirement until d 30, the diet was then decreased to 50% until d 70; it was then returned to 100% of their daily requirement until term. Group d 55-95 ewes were similarly restricted from d 55 through 95, and Group d 85-115 ewes were restricted from d 85 through 115. The control group was fed 100% of their daily requirement to support the ewe and allow for conceptus growth throughout gestation. After parturition, the lactating ewes were fed a normal commercial diet. On d 14 (after parturition), the lambs were slaughtered and the LM, semitendinosus (ST), and vastus lateralis (VL) were dissected and snap frozen. The immunochemical determination of myosin heavy-chain slow (MHC-slow) and myosin heavy-chain fast (MHC-fast) proteins was measured by immunoprobing of Western blots. The number of fast and slow fibers and the diameter of these fibers also were measured in each muscle sample by histochemical techniques. Decreased maternal nutrition before fiber formation (d 30 through 70) was observed to change the muscle characteristics of the newborn lambs. These lambs had significantly fewer fast fibers (P < 0.001) and significantly more slow fibers (P < 0.001) in both the LM and VL compared with the other groups. Maternal nutrient restriction at the other periods had no effect on the number of muscle fibers in the newborn lambs; however, a decrease (LM, P < 0.05; VL, P < 0.01; ST, P = 0.08) in muscle weight was observed in the lambs born to the ewes restricted between d 85 and 115 of gestation compared with the other groups. This study has shown that decreased maternal diet before muscle fiber formation will alter the muscle fiber development in the fetus
there's a more recent study but I can't find it for now, could have been by the Moredun foundation or maybe EBLEX
I think you'll make what you want out of a pup to some extent; but you can't put in what isn't there (at least not easily!).
For me the choice of dog si all about the information you have on it and there are two ways you can have this. The first is the pup out of dogs you have seen working, doing the job you want to do. You will know their good and bad points. If you can't have this then go for dogs with some independant field testing. If you don't want to trial then it may not be necessary to go for FTCH x FTCH (these aren't common and are expensive!) but by going for FTAW x FTAW the dogs have been assessed by judges as having good mouths, not making noise etc....at least on that day!
(ON the muscle thing, yes muscle fibres will cahnge with training but overall structure of a human, dog or horse will make it easier to train for sprint or stamina work....no amount of moulding will see a Clydesdale win a 2yo flat race or see a greyound pull in the Iditarod. Neither could I ever have won a 100m sprint on my short pins!)
The reason I am sure of the muscle fibre thing is I was up at Scotsheep last spring and got talking to a very nice lady professor who was one of the lead researchers on the most recent study, as far I can remember there are three surges of hormones released by the dam during foetal development, if I remember right, they determine not only the gender but also muscle development, after a certain stage the ratio of fast/slow twitch fibre is fixed. All training can do is develop those fibres of a particular type that are already there. Endurance/resistance training will enhance lactic acid tolerance, recovery rate and of course CV efficiency.
Last edited by Bryn on Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Long sessions of low intensity exercise will give your heart a good workout and make it a stronger muscle and therefore pump more blood for every beat and therefore have better endurance. Not sure how much you can change muscle fibre type.
Bryn wrote:(ON the muscle thing, yes muscle fibres will cahnge with training but overall structure of a human, dog or horse will make it easier to train for sprint or stamina work....no amount of moulding will see a Clydesdale win a 2yo flat race or see a greyound pull in the Iditarod. Neither could I ever have won a 100m sprint on my short pins!)
I’m trying to compare two dogs of the same breed.
Say you have two ESS's of similar height and weight (which isn’t uncommon in trial dogs) If you train one in short bursts to build power and drive, that’s what you’ll get – a dog that performs well in short bursts, which is what you want in a trial dog. The other you train a few hours a day to help build stamina and endurance for commercial shoots.The length and intensity of which you train them will dictate how they perform; regardless of a slight difference in structure. The dog that has been used to working in short bursts will have developed more fast-twitch fibres, which use more oxygen in a shorter space of time, thus making him tired quicker and less effective on a long shoot day.
Really sorry about typoing lactose earlier I meant lactic acid
The difference is in aerobic and anearobic exercise and lactic acid tolerance, the fast/slow twitch is the difference between how quickly the fibres contract and relax and that is it nothing else. Sprinting is generally anaerobic meaning the body cannot exchange and transport enough oxygen/CO2 and so lactic acid is produced rapidly as the case in any short intense activity, endurance running is less anaerobic and therefore although lactic acid builds up it is much more slowly as the deficit in gaseous exchange is reduced, for example without any other factors a fit person would be able to walk indefinitely as the CV system would be able to replenish oxygen and nutrients to the muscles and remove Co2 and waste products without building up lactic acid. Lacitc acid tolerance can be improved and that is one of the effects of training.
As far as dogs are concerned, a dog conditioned to hunt flat out for 30 minutes max will go like stink when cast off. A dog conditioned to hunt for longer periods will not hunt with such speed and intensity.
Just because a dogs trial bred doesn't mean it can only "sprint"... its just that that's what dogs that have been trained for trialling do.
I bought an ESS bitch pup from an Irish trialler who said he bred his spaniels for "speed, stamina and aggression". He certainly achieved his goal with the bugger I ended up with, but basically he wanted fast, long lasting, hard hunting dogs. That bitch of mine never trialled and would hunt all day, albeit faster and harder than your average beating dog. Well fed and kept fit there were no issues.
Qest12. It is a huge assumption to suggest that trial dogs are only good for "short bursts". That is purely a conditioning issue, fitness is quickly rectified.
When I trialed HPR's and had a grouse moor trial coming up I hunted the dog in very short bursts of only ten minutes maximum to begin with building up to about half an hour and then to one hour. The longest run under the judges my dogs ever got was 25 minutes and that length of time was very unusual. It was usually about 10 to 15 minutes.
With the trial over and normal hunting on grouse moors resumed for shooting parties the trial dog would go like a bat out of hell but be unable to last the day...or even the entire morning. I would then bring it into heel and hunt another non-trial conditioned dog for a couple of hours before giving the trial dog another run. It would start fast but again be unable to maintain the range and pace.
A couple of days of this and my sprinter would decide marathon running was better and it would adjust it's pace to last longer. Same dog .... different mental outlook.
Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
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Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
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Springfield Pointers wrote:Qest12. That is purely a conditioning issue, fitness is quickly rectified.
I remember that during my studies, I admit some 'days' ago, that we found out that certain sports require certain body types. See the vid qest12 did send.
That doesn't mean a sprinter is not able to do a marathon or a marathon guy run a sprint, but they will never be winners.
Can't it be that the same goes for dogs; a body type for triallers and for hunters? Only in dogs much more difficult to recognise the difference.??
In other words not a conditioning issue, but a genetical predisposition.
I meant lactic acid 
