Progressing The Stop To Direction Control

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Naj
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Re: Progressing The Stop To Direction Control

Post by Naj »

Merlin wrote: One question though, if at sometime he's sent for one of the dummies and he goes for, and gets to, the wrong dummy, what do I do??
Does he get praise or what?
:?

Not sure about that...

:think:
That's the whole point of doing everything at close range. The minute the dog makes the wrong decision you stop it on the whistle &/or move in & intercept the dog or the dummy, before the dog can get to it. It's no use blowing the whistle when the dog is halfway out to the dummy. As always, timing is everything. Then wait until you have its attention & redirect it onto the correct dummy, moving closer if needs be to assist it until it understands what you are trying to teach it. Start at 10 yards from the dog if necessary. If the dog ignores the stop whistle & beats you to the dummy then just take the retrieve without saying anything, chuck it back out, take the dog back to the centre-spot & try again, but this time put yourself in a position where you can easily stop the dog if it goes wrong again.

If you're having problems with the dog wanting to go for the last dummy thrown or the one upwind of it &/or not being 'handy' at going to whichever dummy you direct it to, even when you are beside it or close to, then you've not done the basics correctly. You should go back to sending it for double marked retrieves to right & left in random order, first from the side & then gradually move out to 10-15yards so the dog learns to take your left/right directional signals from a distance. While ever the dog shows any inclination to go for the wrong dummy simply persevere at close distance - within a yard or so of it - until it has learnt to go where directed. Only then try increasing the distance you stand from it. Once its getting the hang of it, you can intermittently toss out the retrieved dummy back into position while the dog is going for the other one so it also learns to go out blind on command. Then do the same with a single dummy thrown over its head to teach it the 'go back' command. Once it does all this without any anticipation glitches you can put it all together into the 3-card trick format as described earlier. By now you shouldn't have any problem in stopping the dog in its tracks if it makes a mistake, & this will have benefits when you begin to handle it in more natural exercises. If the dog is hair-triggered then you should also spend time teaching the dog not to anticipate the command. When the dog can handle onto any of the 3 dummies in the trick being placed blind against the distraction of the other 2 retrieves being thrown out & marked, then you can begin to take the show into more naturalistic settings, but start close & increase distance slowly & go back to shorter retrieves whenever the dog begins to lose the plot.

Naj
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Merlin
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Re: Progressing The Stop To Direction Control

Post by Merlin »

Thanks Naj,

I'm away down to the Cotswold's next week so I'll work on these while I'm there, just printed it all off for reference..
:-D

Mark
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carolwildbird
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Re: Progressing The Stop To Direction Control

Post by carolwildbird »

Naj

I very much appreciate you taking time to write all this out.. seems like an excellent plan of action. We've been doing long memories and then long blinds to the same place, ditto long marks and blinds (when I have someone to throw), and some short blinds in the opposite direction to a mark. But the multiple dummy training, as you describe it, will, I see, really help further progress the stops and directions. The key issue is whether I'm fast enough to stop her if she goes for the wrong one. She sets off like greased lightening!

Thats my summer sorted!
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jeffD
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Re: Progressing The Stop To Direction Control

Post by jeffD »

carolwildbird wrote:Naj

I very much appreciate you taking time to write all this out.. seems like an excellent plan of action. We've been doing long memories and then long blinds to the same place, ditto long marks and blinds (when I have someone to throw), and some short blinds in the opposite direction to a mark. But the multiple dummy training, as you describe it, will, I see, really help further progress the stops and directions. The key issue is whether I'm fast enough to stop her if she goes for the wrong one. She sets off like greased lightening!

Thats my summer sorted!

I have to agree this forum is great, so much knowledge and help far better than any training book. I have trained a few rough shooting dogs but while not aspiring for field trials I want my latest and possible my last dog( so says SHMBO) to be above the standard of my previous dogs and with the help from this forum I am sure I will achieve my aims.
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Merlin
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Re: Progressing The Stop To Direction Control

Post by Merlin »

jeffD wrote:
carolwildbird wrote:Naj

I very much appreciate you taking time to write all this out.. seems like an excellent plan of action. We've been doing long memories and then long blinds to the same place, ditto long marks and blinds (when I have someone to throw), and some short blinds in the opposite direction to a mark. But the multiple dummy training, as you describe it, will, I see, really help further progress the stops and directions. The key issue is whether I'm fast enough to stop her if she goes for the wrong one. She sets off like greased lightening!

Thats my summer sorted!

I have to agree this forum is great, so much knowledge and help far better than any training book. I have trained a few rough shooting dogs but while not aspiring for field trials I want my latest and possible my last dog( so says SHMBO) to be above the standard of my previous dogs and with the help from this forum I am sure I will achieve my aims.

Too True, feel the Lurv for th GTF !!
:Cheers:
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Naj
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Re: Progressing The Stop To Direction Control

Post by Naj »

You could have read about this type of stuff in any training manual. ;) But it will be of no help at all unless you put it into practice with daily repetition over weeks & months, while trying to make it exciting for the dog. It's no use doing a few lessons & then thinking that will do & jumping fast forward to the more exciting/advanced stuff. And if you see a potential problem developing then fix it before moving on. If the dog is a bit too quick off the mark then you have taught it to be that way, so re-train it if its beginning to cause a problem. :think:

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Merlin
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Re: Progressing The Stop To Direction Control

Post by Merlin »

Naj,

I've read loads of books, and I don't think you get an explanation of this kind about any one particular exercise..
Unless the books I put down after reading the first couple of chapters got better part way through and I missed something...
:think:
This is the sort of stuff that I've always thought was missing from the "training" books, IMO anyway...

Anyway, last day in this job so I best get on with finishing stuff off if I want to get away early !!
:dance:

Thanks Naj,

Mark
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Judy
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Re: Progressing The Stop To Direction Control

Post by Judy »

Dunno about taking a step backwards but I'll be running backwards for a bit! I was going to keep stum about last night's little episode but it might give the more experienced a good laugh and those who are struggling with this a bit of encouragement.

Had Midge out for the first time since her season, the exercise we set up was a blind three card trick, first retrieve was straight down the path for 20 yards or so then across open ground for another 30 for a blind retrieve, there were two other dummies out ,one either side of the line.
Set her up, straight back, winded the dummy, picked and returned. 20/20. :dance:

Second dummy was downwind of the track around 30 yards away. Send dog down track, flat out, great! Pip whistle, screeching halt, whoopee! I signal left, she sits still and stares, I signal left again she moves towards the right hand, upwind dummy. Pip whistle, signal left, slight movement right, pip, signal left. Nothing, nada, Midge lies down. :brickwall: I moved up closer and again signal left, chin goes onto floor. ("Dunno why you're waving yer left arm Ma the dummy is quite obviously the other way, I know these things cos I can smell better'n you"). I move forwards again, signal, chin remains firmly fixed to ground. :brickwall: OK move right up close and personal, signal left, Midge goes rushing off in the right, correct, direction but hunts half the damned field before I can actually get her handled right onto the dummy. ("Oh this is what you want? Right wtf didn't you say so?").

I run back to position and get my dummy delivered. Walk Midge back to that spot. Chuck the dummy out left, walk back.

Signal left, Midge rushes to the now marked dummy comes back to the track :dance: and drops it before running back to me. :brickwall: Sent her back for it, she veers off to the hidden upwind dummy (remember that one? :lol: ) Stop whistle ignored so I chase out and get to her before she finds the dummy, take her back to the track send her from a foot away for the dropped dummy. On the third attempt I finally get myself dog and dummy connected and back where we started. :brickwall:

I then "rewarded her" by walking her back to that spot, leaving her, walking back to the start and sending her to the right. Well, that was the plan, she laid back down chin on the ground ("but Ma, you didn't want that one, you told me to leave it so I am") so recalled her and sent her from my side, dummy retrieved 20/20. :roll:

Had I been a beginner at this lark I wouldn't have anticipated her move to the upwind dummy and by then time I had blown the stop whistle it would have been too late. Another twenty years down the line I might work out why the little sod didn't trust me and go left as requested! :lol: :lol: Unfortunately I will be in line for a telegram from the King before I work out why she dropped that second left hand dummy on the track before racing back to me.

Suggestions on a post card please and its back to basics with the hormonal little shite! :twisted:
In life, it is important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.
Naj
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Re: Progressing The Stop To Direction Control

Post by Naj »

I think that what your experience highlights are the limitations of the 3-card trick. :think: It's great for teaching handling skills close up & where the dog has little chance of going wrong once it has taken the correct direction, but try to develop it into more complicated, longer range lessons, as you have done, and you throw in too many variables that can go wrong & work against what you are trying to achieve. Once a young dog has understood the simple 3-card trick at close quarters I move on to single blinds & only use the handling if the dog goes out of the area. If you want to throw in more complicated stuff you can do this once the dog has confidence in being handled on 'easy' blinds. :idea:

Naj
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Re: Progressing The Stop To Direction Control

Post by Judy »

Naj wrote: If you want to throw in more complicated stuff you can do this once the dog has confidence in being handled on 'easy' blinds. :idea:

Naj
These were easy blinds! The, potentially, hard one was the first, past the scent of the upwind dummy. The other two she would normally do standing on her head (maybe that was the problem, she had all four feet on the ground! :idea: ) Doesn't explain dropping the second, marked, left hand dummy on her way back. :think: I don't think her mind was quite back on the job as she had achieved a difficult blind on a tennis ball in cover and out of sight once sent and a dummy blind over the brow of a hill without any problems. Maybe she had had her quota of concentration for one afternoon. :-D
In life, it is important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.
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