Gundog Training Forum

I'm of a bit of a different mindset. I let my cocker chase a lot when he was younger. Once he learned he couldn't catch the bird or rabbit steadying was a breeze. Easier to grab when they only run a few feet and stop. Game has a way of training dogs in ways we can't. You have a great opportunity with all the rabbits on your property. I certainly wouldn't be paying to use a rabbit pen.

Cass, in many ways I agree with you but "choking a cat with cream" - giving a dog lots of chances to chase furry things - does not work for all dogs. My last Brittany was a bit of a rabbit chaser until she went into a field with at least 80 rabbits out in it. She chased the herd of rabbits ...but gave in quite quickly. Next time I took her there she wouldn't chase them at all and was steady to rabbits from then on. The sheer numbers of rabbits running in front of her discouraged her from chasing them …. I had got very lucky !


My cocker "Charlie" on the other hand had been allowed to free hunt rabbits from about 5 months to 10 months old and he intended to always chase them ! I ended up encouraging him to point them before he flushed and chased them and from there I put the sit to flush into him ……...training steadiness is far, far easier if a dog will point game first ! He is still very interested in rabbits but I can stop him from chasing ….or at least I could when he could still hear whistles !

Wullie

Thanks all!

I don't think letting him chase every one would ever make him think 'nah no point' he just doesn't have that nature hes a nutter. Problem is hes now chased quite a few rabbits, and still puts up chase if he sees one. Its got worse since that myxi one a few weeks back. I saw a bad myxi one that couldn't move, cocker sat by it wagging tail, I grabbed it, knocked it on the head as it had myxi badly and used it for retrieving exercises, but I'm now guessing he now thinks he can possible catch everything and we can do retrieving with it I guess as he loves retrieving.

When I took him out previously and he chased one he was hunting only a few foot in front of me, going really nicely fast and furious but nice pattern to him.. I could of almost caught him which was the plan as he was so close but that rabbit flushed, he was on the rabbits tail so fast. I whistled the sit, shouted SIT and I always get after him, grab him and put him back where I blew the stop but it's made 0 improvement.

I went out with the long line the other night after this post, didn't find a single flippin' rabbit! He was hunting on fire, we went into fields and I saw over 50 in each field with my headlight but they got wise and disappeared so was really disappointed.

Today he was a little sod! He was just walking along the path opposite my stables and smelt a rabbit in the field opposite, I knew what was coming so I asked him (and lab) to sit/stay as rabbit bolted, lab stayed, off my cocker went like a flippin' rocket. I didn't have my whistle (7am, just got out of bed to do horses quickly, half asleep) so I chased him as fast as I could shouting at him, in my pjs, oh that made no odds he kept going!! Rabbit crossed in front of him so I took that opportunity to grab his scruff, walked him the entire way back to where I said SIT and put him there. BUT his tail was STILL wagging, he couldn't give 2 craps!

At least if I hire a pen I can predict where the flushes will be and expect them?...

It depends on the pen Aimee. I have been in about 8 rabbit pens over the years. In 5 of them I did have a good idea of where and when a rabbit would run but in the other 3 I did not....the cover in them was thick high grass and brush piles and they were large pens. One of the best pens I was ever in was a small one of about 30 yards by 15 yards. It had a few small trees growing in it and it had 5 fairly large bramble patches.

That pen only had 4 or 5 rabbits in it and multiple flushes often happened . The bramble patches that the rabbits usually hid in made it almost impossible to use a check cord on a dog but I could anticipate when a rabbit was going to start running and be ready to start running after my dog --- which was easily caught in that size of pen.

One of the rabbits in there was a clever little bugger. It would see us coming and climb a slightly sloping tree to crouch on a branch 2 -3 feet above my head ! From that perch it sat safely and watched it's pals being chased !

P.S. If you do get into a pen don't go round and round and round it while trying to get your moneys worth for the hour. If you do that your dog will notice it is in a pen , will maybe not chase while inside it but will still chase outside it ! That tends to happen anyway but doing short , well spaced little hunts, delays the dog's knowing it is in a pen.
Pens only give you a start to steadiness to fur, you still need to generalise on this in real hunting situations.

Wullie

trekmoor wrote: ↑Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:08 am

P.S. If you do get into a pen don't go round and round and round it while trying to get your moneys worth for the hour. If you do that your dog will notice it is in a pen , will maybe not chase while inside it but will still chase outside it ! That tends to happen anyway but doing short , well spaced little hunts, delays the dog's knowing it is in a pen.
Pens only give you a start to steadiness to fur, you still need to generalise on this in real hunting situations.

Wullie

Good observation Wullie!

Thanks Wullie, that is very true. I also simply can't find a pen within 2 hours of me.. there is one chap who does private lessons and has a rabbit pen but starts at £75 and I can't afford that currently!

To add, just took the dogs out on my dinner break.

Hunted my cocker in a small enclosed woodland by my horses field and he flushed a rabbit pretty much instantly. I blew the stop while on my way to grab him, he was about 3ft in front of me but I didn't reach him in time, off the sod went, I ran over grabbed him and put him back where I blew the stop. Made him wait a few seconds to calm down, then hunted him again. He flushed it again, blew the stop as I started to get after him, he didn't stop, so as previously ran over and grabbed him and put him where I blew the stop whistle. Third time he hunted, flushed the rabbit but it only moved a few foot and he did sit himself, looking at me. It flushed into the long grass and he watched it.

He hunted in the area nicely, instantly sitting to every stop whistle (making sure I had full control) he flushed it and he stopped himself just as I blew the stop whistle so praised him lots but the rabbit didn't go to far so it wasn't really a opportunity he could chase it and I'm sure if it properly bolted he would of been gone. I then walked over and noticed its eyes were shut and it had severe myxi, the rest of it in good condition and only noticeable once close to its eyes, I banged its head to end its suffering. I absolutely hate doing it but hate seeing them suffer.

Thats the 4th myxi rabbits life I've ended and this was a massive one, same length as my cocker.

It seems if the rabbit flushes and stops, he sits but as soon as the rabbit flushes and keeps running across the field etc is when he can't help himself. Not much of a chance of the rabbit stopping once flushed if its perfectly healthy lets be honest.

I may take him out in dusk tonight and see how we get on but he knows when hes on the long line so it won't really cure much. He just is obsessed with chasing but if they're alive won't touch them so its odd. If all else fails I could charge the e-collar up as a last resort, but don't want to ruin his drive..

Aimee, i have nothing to offer by way of advice per se, but it seems that your legging after him and either scruffing or returning to the spot doesn't appear to have any effect on him. Maybe you need to try another method, no i don't know what exactly as its just an observation

ips wrote: ↑Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:01 pm Aimee, i have nothing to offer by way of advice per se, but it seems that your legging after him and either scruffing or returning to the spot doesn't appear to have any effect on him. Maybe you need to try another method, no i don't know what exactly as its just an observation

Thanks IPS I have no idea either what else to try.. every trainer (who was shocked how confident and strong willed he is) said to use this method of legging after him and grabbing by scruff and returning to spot. Another one is legging after him and grabbing him by the skin either side of his neck and holding him, carrying then putting him on the spot without saying a word and slowly so he remembers it (not exactly a nice method) but either effects him as you can see. He is soft in 'pet' ways, in the home, on the yard, if I even raise my voice at him he comes back with his tail between his legs but when hes 'working' hes a completely different kettle of fish.

I really don't know what else to try.. I don't want to start smacking him but even that I don't think would have the positive outcome anyway i'm certain he doesn't care what happens as long as he gets the chase.

I read up on it, books, online posts and trainers say its usually always because the dogs self rewarded with a chase previously and once they've got a chase it only gets worse as they continue to do so and self reward, and this seems to be it. Our lab as a pup would chase and grab them, he chases but isn't interested in touching them while they're alive. Our lab bitch chased a rabbit a few weeks ago, I legged after her, grabbed her and now when she sees a rabbit bolt she stops and looks at me, so shes learned she shouldn't chase unless told but my cocker just doesn't get it.

Maybe try a diversion as soon as he clocks the bunny, turn him and hunt him the opposite way. It worked for me but of course yours may be stronger willed than mine. I started to train the above on dummies first. Just an idea as corrections obviously dont work with him

And this is why i never do dogging in because once the dogs sees game why shoulf it hunt for it when sight is much easier, and now the chase is the reward and as you have now found out deafness and self rewarding come very quickly.