Probably over analysing again but....

[Rough_mut]

Personally I think all dogs are looking to catch the bird. Even if they wont pick it up.

I'm one of these that doesn't believe dogs are trying to 'flush' the bird, it's also why I dont think pegging is a fault or major issue!

My reasoning for this......

Well I don't have any. I believe 99% of working dogs at some point will stumble on an injured or well hidden bird and catch it at some point in its life.

Prove me wrong!

[newf]

I agree Rough_mut, it's instinctive to chase and try and catch. It's the catching part we fear most: how much instinct is there to chew and devour ? So, there is breeding for moderation of one thing and an increase in another.

As to Ips question: Imo if the instinct is there then any part of the chain is rewarding. The only thing I see that would kill instinct is intolerable punishment of some sort that dependably happens with any part of the behavior.

[Dan Newcombe]

Dogs that have been allowed / encouraged to hunt treat the find as a reward. When you are shooting rabbits over a dog it will always go up a gear after a find regardless of the outcome.

Dogs that have only even done retrieving really will be looking for that and not necessarily understand the bit before - usually means that don’t hunt as hard until they have worked it out.

I often think that the retrieve is a bit of an inconvenience for a good hunting spaniel!

[CockerCanuck]

Personally I think all dogs are looking to catch the bird. Even if they wont pick it up.

I'm one of these that doesn't believe dogs are trying to 'flush' the bird, it's also why I dont think pegging is a fault or major issue!

My reasoning for this......

Well I don't have any. I believe 99% of working dogs at some point will stumble on an injured or well hidden bird and catch it at some point in its life.

Prove me wrong!

I won't try and prove you wrong. I agree with you. I think the dog's most basic instinct and desire is to find and catch the prey. Therefore the flush is a means to that end, and a step in the process of catching. Of course catching game birds is a pretty low percentage game without a gun to help. However once the gun brings the bird down even the most unschooled dogs will run in to complete the "catch". Lots will pick it up and carry a bit but retrieving to hand needs to be taught so I don't see it as a reward unless training has made it so. What must be somewhat of a frustration to young beating dogs is doing all that hunting and flushing but not allowed any "catching". Of course as they age and learn dogs are very accepting of their lot in life so come to enjoy the process even if they don't get to do everything they want.

I don't think this makes beating dogs frustrated creatures. All our dogs learn to happily accept limitations on their natural instincts. My dogs get to do lots of retrieving but I don't let them eat the bird which would be the next logical step for them

[ips]

Dogs that have been allowed / encouraged to hunt treat the find as a reward. When you are shooting rabbits over a dog it will always go up a gear after a find regardless of the outcome.

Dogs that have only even done retrieving really will be looking for that and not necessarily understand the bit before - usually means that don’t hunt as hard until they have worked it out.

I often think that the retrieve is a bit of an inconvenience for a good hunting spaniel!

Interesting.
My one definitely goes up a gear once she is into birds. Too many gears sometimes. I am just wondering if its the hunt / flush / find whatever you want to call it OR the retrieve or rather the potential for a retrieve that floats there boat. I believe for my one anyway that the goal is a bird in her gob.

[ips]

Personally I think all dogs are looking to catch the bird. Even if they wont pick it up.

I'm one of these that doesn't believe dogs are trying to 'flush' the bird, it's also why I dont think pegging is a fault or major issue!

My reasoning for this......

Well I don't have any. I believe 99% of working dogs at some point will stumble on an injured or well hidden bird and catch it at some point in its life.

Prove me wrong!

I won't try and prove you wrong. I agree with you. I think the dog's most basic instinct and desire is to find and catch the prey. Therefore the flush is a means to that end, and a step in the process of catching. Of course catching game birds is a pretty low percentage game without a gun to help. However once the gun brings the bird down even the most unschooled dogs will run in to complete the "catch". Lots will pick it up and carry a bit but retrieving to hand needs to be taught so I don't see it as a reward unless training has made it so. What must be somewhat of a frustration to young beating dogs is doing all that hunting and flushing but not allowed any "catching". Of course as they age and learn dogs are very accepting of their lot in life so come to enjoy the process even if they don't get to do everything they want.

I don't think this makes beating dogs frustrated creatures. All our dogs learn to happily accept limitations on their natural instincts. My dogs get to do lots of retrieving but I don't let them eat the bird which would be the next logical step for them

Now that my friend sums up my thoughts exactly

PS
This i believe is the problem with beating and dogging in, the dots are not joined up as is the case when your shooting over them. Furthermore i believe that the lack of the full picture causes the moments of frustration in the dog which manifest into chase, run ins and general mayhem

[newf]

If a dog expects a reward for some action but is denied then frustration and experimentation can happen. Whining, run ins, stealing and I dare say aggression are some ways a dog may be determined to explore and provide itself with the reward.

Proper training tempers anticipation to either follow directions or turn off completely. Instinct, doesn’t necessarily have to be rewarded to be break out and take over because it is part of being a dog. Withholding or denying a reward by itself is incomplete control on instinct.

[Naj]

My young dogs hunt quite happily and naturally without ever having had a bird in their mouth, or, initially, without ever seeing a bird or rabbit. And dogs run in because anticipation is an integral component of every behaviour chain. Training, or the lack of it, determines how a (trained) dog behaves, and frustration issues are often down to poor training and management. A dog can’t know what’s beyond it’s ken so a beating dog that has never been shot over has no aspirations beyond finding and flushing the next bird. What shooting over a dog does is to cement the relationship (in that context) with the handler, the gun and the bird - Routines and rituals through repetition.

Naj

[ips]

My young dogs hunt quite happily and naturally without ever having had a bird in their mouth, or, initially, without ever seeing a bird or rabbit. And dogs run in because anticipation is an integral component of every behaviour chain. Training, or the lack of it, determines how a (trained) dog behaves, and frustration issues are often down to poor training and management. A dog can’t know what’s beyond it’s ken so a beating dog that has never been shot over has no aspirations beyond finding and flushing the next bird. What shooting over a dog does is to cement the relationship (in that context) with the handler, the gun and the bird - Routines and rituals through repetition.

Naj

I wonder if pigeon from a hide has any good effect on the relationship or is the lack of the hunt a factor ??

[Naj]

My young dogs hunt quite happily and naturally without ever having had a bird in their mouth, or, initially, without ever seeing a bird or rabbit. And dogs run in because anticipation is an integral component of every behaviour chain. Training, or the lack of it, determines how a (trained) dog behaves, and frustration issues are often down to poor training and management. A dog can’t know what’s beyond it’s ken so a beating dog that has never been shot over has no aspirations beyond finding and flushing the next bird. What shooting over a dog does is to cement the relationship (in that context) with the handler, the gun and the bird - Routines and rituals through repetition.

Naj

I wonder if pigeon from a hide has any good effect on the relationship or is the lack of the hunt a factor ??

Every time you’re doing stuff with your dog you’re developing the relationship. All in context, of course. How you manage that time together determines the type of relationship you have. Pigeon shooting in a hide is showing the dog the power of the gun and its place in the grand order of things, in relation to you, the gun and the bird. As with shooting over a questing dog it’s all pretty simple and predictable (hunt, flush, shot, retrieve, repeat), only with pigeon shooting it’s lots of hanging around interspersed with flurries of activity, but all encompassing predictable routines and rituals through repetition.

Naj