It's all about the training!

[Nickheref]

Funnily enough I was thinking about this as I sat in a three hour queue on the M40 yesterday. Ranting quietly to myself about ignorant councillors. However as I watched a small unmarked private ambulance go up the hard-shoulder I realised someone else's life was over and somewhere a family would be getting a very unwelcome visit from the police and decided to think about happier things.

My pups are now 13 months and progressing well up to expectations. At 4 months old their drive to carry everything and anything and race around at high speed with it had me slightly concerned that I would ever get them steady. Slowly working through the sit, stop etc and keeping calm worked as it always does - well nearly always - I shall come back to that. At about 8 months that they were completely steady to the thrown dummy whether sat next to me or 20 yards away, they understood that they should not fetch it until asked to and were happy to comply.

The same with hunting, when younger they were in danger of clearing woods on their own but when I started working on quartering with them they began to understand what I wanted.

Game is important to ensure that what they have learnt is really learnt and also to work in the presence of game without boiling over and at times how to force a flush. I am now hunting them independently ( allowed to hunt together with the other dogs they will still clear woods without me only more efficiently than when younger ) on ground with game and occasionally they are well aware there is something moving in front and want to pull forward to the game, I would be disappointed if they didn't but they answer the turn whistle if I have to use it and occasionally the stop if they are getting too fired up and likely to disappear into the green yonder rather than working with me. To do that though the stop and turn must work!

So I think you do need game to produce the polished hunting dog but that doesn't mean you have to have access to large amounts of it or the finest ground. Trekmoor often commented on the unusual places he found game and I had to spend much of my life doing the same, a sand and gravel pit had loads of wild partridges and I loved hunting my young dogs quietly making sure no one know I was there otherwise Heath and Safety Clad men would have removed me.

I have only had one dog I really was uncertain of steadiness with and that, in my view, was because she had so little natural drive I was always having to make sure she would to do things and make it obvious that retrieving etc was a good thing rather than having the comfort of knowing that she would do them when I told her she could and not having to worry about it. The breeder is as important if not more so than the trainer!

[Judy]

I train so rarely my dogs are always excited to see the dummies come out.

But you are training cockers who’s mood is always elevated. A Lab needs a bit more motivation to get to the stellar heights that cockers occupy every day

Don't forget I had the Flatcoats before the Cockers. My question is; do Labs ever reach stellar heights of excitement, or anything else for that matter?

[PRH]

I train so rarely my dogs are always excited to see the dummies come out.

But you are training cockers who’s mood is always elevated. A Lab needs a bit more motivation to get to the stellar heights that cockers occupy every day

Don't forget I had the Flatcoats before the Cockers. My question is; do Labs ever reach stellar heights of excitement, or anything else for that matter?

Too early in the week for fishing....

[crackerd]

But you are training cockers who’s mood is always elevated. A Lab needs a bit more motivation to get to the stellar heights that cockers occupy every day

Don't forget I had the Flatcoats before the Cockers. My question is; do Labs ever reach stellar heights of excitement, or anything else for that matter?

Too early in the week for fishing....

Not only that, but Madame Moderator might seize on CC's "current" infatuation with Mr Hillmann and his methodology, and have him stand accused of "electrofishing"--

Electrofishing
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Electrofishing is a fishing technique that uses direct current electricity flowing between a submerged cathode and anode. This affects the movements of nearby fish so that they swim toward the anode, where they can be caught or stunned.[1]

Electrofishing is a common scientific survey method used to sample fish populations to determine abundance, density and species composition. When performed correctly, electrofishing results in no permanent harm to the fish, which return to their natural mobility state in as little as two minutes after being caught.[1]

MG

[Naj]

Read an account of a trainer learning how to produce a working sheepdog without corrections back in the 90s and it reminded me of this thread. She used marker sticks and cones (so the dog wasn’t distracted by sheep) to teach the basics of handling, casting and mirroring her movements on command. When she’d got the basics ingrained she introduced sheep in a managed setting, along with the familiar marker sticks and cones, and took it from there, gradually fading out the props. But complementary to the artificial stuff she also did a lot of games and basic training in close proximity to sheep so that they became background noise to the dog and it learnt to follow commands in their presence. Using this method she produced dogs that worked on her stock farm and that were also competitive in sheep dog trials. ‘positive’ gundog trainers follow a similar regime, many using marker sticks and/or cones to develop handling skills. And they also get pups used to engaging with them under the distraction of game separately to that, then meld the two together. You can’t get away from timely exposure to game (or sheep ) whatever your methodology.

[Stacia]

I train so rarely my dogs are always excited to see the dummies come out.

But you are training cockers who’s mood is always elevated. A Lab needs a bit more motivation to get to the stellar heights that cockers occupy every day

Don't forget I had the Flatcoats before the Cockers. My question is; do Labs ever reach stellar heights of excitement, or anything else for that matter?

My local farmer has a new Lab pup, she is about 6 months old now and she puts a Spanner to shame with her excitement and energy level He has four more adult ones and this new pup is something different! I think if she was a first Lab, you would never have another one!

[Kibble]

Or is it?



I have a caveat though, it's not all about the training, it's about how you live with your dog too, if you ask your dog to do something in the house or out on a walk the dog must do it, don't recall and accept a fly past as "the dog came back", don't accept an occasional rest on the sofa they are not allowed on, the occasional visit upstairs if that's not where you want them to go. If you don't let you standards slip then neither will they.

I understand this firmness is key. It's also difficult to do consistently. It's all too easy to be a bit sloppy. My cocker puppy has always been very excitable and challenging. She really needs a more experienced trainer, but she's stuck with me.
Must try harder.

[Naj]

Firmness isn’t the key, training is, and whenever you’re with your dog either you are training the dog or the dog is training you, which I think is what Judy was getting at. Repetition, consistency and persistence are the key elements in training any animal, together with knowledge and understanding. Unfortunately, dogs are more consistent and persistent in their outlook than we tend to be. But they’re not machines and most of us are looking for a pet come working companion so the end result is usually a compromise. And as you gain in skill and experience and tweak things so will your expectation as to what that compromise will look like.

Naj

[Kibble]

Firmness isn’t the key, training is, and whenever you’re with your dog either you are training the dog or the dog is training you, which I think is what Judy was getting at. Repetition, consistency and persistence are the key elements in training any animal, together with knowledge and understanding. Unfortunately, dogs are more consistent and persistent in their outlook than we tend to be. But they’re not machines and most of us are looking for a pet come working companion so the end result is usually a compromise. And as you gain in skill and experience and tweak things so will your expectation as to what that compromise will look like.

Naj

Ah, thank you. Perhaps 'firmness' wasn't the right word and your reply makes me think this through a bit.
First I need to be clear about what I want my dog to do, when and where she should do these actions and how I can ensure she does what I have sked.
Then I need to concentrate so I can be consistent in what I ask her to do. I shouldn't ever be switched off, distracted or in a hurry.
Then there are the things I don't want her to do. I need strategies to manage, manipulate and deter her from doing these.
Then I need to be alert to, distractions, hazards and situations, which can be anything from a blown leaf to an approaching out of control big dog, and I need to do something about these.
Then perhaps I should include allowances for age and experience dependent errors. Her's or mine.
All this should be great fun for at least one of us.
Phew.

[WGD]

Firmness isn’t the key, training is, and whenever you’re with your dog either you are training the dog or the dog is training you, which I think is what Judy was getting at. Repetition, consistency and persistence are the key elements in training any animal, together with knowledge and understanding. Unfortunately, dogs are more consistent and persistent in their outlook than we tend to be. But they’re not machines and most of us are looking for a pet come working companion so the end result is usually a compromise. And as you gain in skill and experience and tweak things so will your expectation as to what that compromise will look like.

Naj

Ah, thank you. Perhaps 'firmness' wasn't the right word and your reply makes me think this through a bit.
First I need to be clear about what I want my dog to do, when and where she should do these actions and how I can ensure she does what I have sked.
Then I need to concentrate so I can be consistent in what I ask her to do. I shouldn't ever be switched off, distracted or in a hurry.
Then there are the things I don't want her to do. I need strategies to manage, manipulate and deter her from doing these.
Then I need to be alert to, distractions, hazards and situations, which can be anything from a blown leaf to an approaching out of control big dog, and I need to do something about these.
Then perhaps I should include allowances for age and experience dependent errors. Her's or mine.
All this should be great fun for at least one of us.
Phew.

What you have described here is 1) knowing what you want 2) knowing whether the dog understands what you want 3) consistency in the approach to teaching the dog what you want and 4) managing the environment so as not to set the dog up to fail.

Sort that lot out and you'll end up with a well schooled and capable dog. Start with No 1 and remember dogs don't speak English.