Should I pause general retrieving work during hold conditioning.?

[munstyman]

I had the gut feeling that as you said stopping the dog while sent out to a retrieve would affect confidence and commitment if done to often, it didn't seem like the right thing to do, when I did it

My thought process was that if the dog is hunting for the blind retrieve 20 yds to the left then I should stop him and send him to the right? If the dog is in inside this I leave her do its work. Perhaps as I have thrown dummies in the area during the session previous to the blind retrieves the scent is confusing the dog? Is this a schoolboy error? I thought this would increase the effective reality of the training. The dog has never failed to retrieve a dummy although sometimes I have had to bring her back in and send her out again on the line.

If it feels wrong, chances are your right .
There is a time to handle a dog and there is a time to leave the dog to it. If your training a dog you need to separate the two aspects as much as possible and train the individual attributes, which is why you need to think about how you set up the exercise, to prevent any cross over as much as possible. Once a dog has mastered both, individually you can start to bring them together ( proofing each in the presence of each other ).
As Nick pointed out, too much `help' is counter productive to the function of the dog, but ironically teaching handlers to do nothing is the hardest thing I find to get them to do
Understanding how the dog finds a blind, by scent is an exercise in itself. Again this goes a long way in setting up the exercise so you give the dog every opportunity to succeed and not fail. Everything that you do which does not give the dog the benefit of the wind ( scent cone ) when it reaches the area of search will add to the potential of the dog failing to locate on its own abilities and will then cross over into a handling exercise ( which should be being done on seen and memories in the early stages ).
As I noted before `long grass' is one of the more difficult blind retrieves simply because the grass will trap a lot of the scent around the dummy and the scent cone will be narrow and sparse and fairly short. A middle ground exercise would be to plant the dummy in a trampled area of long grass so the scent is less contained. ( however as those of us with dogs with long noses and that track will point out, that trampled grass also releases its own scent cone. Like everything else you have to watch that your not training the dog to search for this )

Ive only been working with the dog for nearly 4 weeks and shes two (regards retrieving), she has done previous heel and some obedience work and is very steady and easy to control in general. Her enthusiasm for this work appears boundless.

I'm probably trying to progress too quickly, but the seen/memory retrieves are no problem for the dog. So I introduced the blind retrieves and then the blind retrieves in deep grass.

It is easy to fall into the trap of progressing too quickly. Dogs are very quick to figure out the game and do it successfully early on. This is not the same as the dog knowing all the actions linked to your various commands ( Your stop being a case in point ) Repetition is also a double edged sword. You need enough to get it ingrained but not too much as to become `boring' to the dog so it looks to change the rules of play. Training is all about finding that elusive balance ... and it changes with every dog so even the experienced will get it wrong some times, which is again why I encourage you to listen to those pesky feelings which are often associated with a good reading of the dog subconsciously

What can I do to work on the stop when the dog's mind is engaged enthusiastically on another task without doing it when the dog is actually enthusiastically distracted? I can stop her but its not immediate when shes is at long range, or is my problem (nearly said the dog's problem ) that I need to get the dog to respond more accurately to the direction I am sending her out in and go further before wondering off the angle sent? Or a mixture of all that?

Training the stop at a distance is the same as training it close. You get the consistent response then increase the distance, then shuffle distance with `distractions' . Remembering the more you train for specifics the easier it will be when you bring two exercises together as you will see what aspect needs more work. Go back a few steps with that aspect.
Yes, you need to work on the setting the dog up and taking of a line. This will save you so much time and training in the long run, especially if the dog has a nose and is a determined retriever. If it lacks nose or direction or determination you may require a `hunt there ' command rather than stop

[SoupDragon]

Thank you both for the time spent giving such substantial feedback. I get where you're coming from and can see that the points you make are directly relevant to what I have been doing.

[CockerCanuck]

Your descriptions of the dog are quite clear which makes it easier to offer advice. Though always difficult without seeing the dog. I picture that you have a precocious pup with a strong desire to please. We use to call this “biddable” but that seems to have fallen out of favour. It’s a wonderful quality but can be a challenge to the inexperienced. The dog very quickly seems to anticipate what you want and does it a few times so you start to think he is “trained” when that is not the case. He is just doing what he thinks you want because he has nothing particularly better to do at the time. Even with these very biddable dogs you need to do the groundwork and spend the time so he understands exactly what you want and alternative behaviours are not optional.

I never stop a dog on a marked retrieve. Let them get out there and hunt. If they get out there and get confused and look back for help provide it. It’s quite different on a blind in that case the dog only believes there is a bird out there because you told them and so a stop and redirection is less inhibiting to their natural drive.

[CockerCanuck]

Just a follow up when I look back on over 60 years with gundogs most of the best trained were the least biddable in the beginning. They make you stick the the program and do the groundwork. The very compliant tempt you into shortcuts which almost always ends up a problem later.

[SoupDragon]

This may be a daft question.......but

To facilitate longer retrieves is there any issue with sitting the dog walking out 40 yards and throwing the dummies, then returning to the dog and sending her out? I just don't see anyone doing it on YouTube?? and as I'm YouTube-trained I wonder if there's any reason this is not good practice?

[Nickheref]

None at all, I often do just that as you are putting a number of things into a session, sitting in one place, steadiness and marking. I also quite often throw a dummy then walk the dog away from it before sitting it for a short while then sending it.

[SoupDragon]

None at all, I often do just that as you are putting a number of things into a session, sitting in one place, steadiness and marking. I also quite often throw a dummy then walk the dog away from it before sitting it for a short while then sending it.

Thanks for the reply Nick, I'm comfortably reassured

[Nickheref]

If it helps yesterday I put out a blind and then fetched the dog walked 50 yards away, threw a distraction dummy I intended to pick myself later to remind her that she doesn't get every retrieve and sent her for the blind, she picked the blind absolutely no problem and sat watching me whilst I wandered around for 5 minutes unable to find the distraction dummy, eventually I gave up walked back to her and sent her for it, she knew where is was even if I didn't but I think the long delay was nearly as good as me picking it.

[munstyman]

Been there and got half a dozen of those t-shirts. I would love to know what is going through the dogs mind as it watches us search though

[Judy]

My thought process was that if the dog is hunting for the blind retrieve 20 yds to the left then I should stop him and send him to the right?

I, and I suspect this is pretty general from experienced handlers, often deliberately on blind retrieves send the dog on a line to the windward side of the dummy/bird. That way you can be yards out but still correct in the dogs mind. Whereas if you send it directly at the fall and the dog goes slightly upwind of it, the dog won't find it and will ultimately lose confidence in you then decide if it has any chance of finding stuff it must rely solely on itself, so ignore the stop whistle and get on with the job. However the real thing it to train the stop whistle properly as every time you need to blow it repeatedly and shout etc you are making that the norm in the dogs world.

To see what a dog's nose can do you might, on a fairly breezy day with a constant wind put a dummy in light cover without the dog seeing then slowly from quite a distance away walk the dog towards it into the wind with the dog at heel possibly stopping and sitting it a few times whilst watching its reaction, almost certainly at some point you will see the dog raise its nose or twitch as it has got wind of it and knows exactly where it is without a word from you. You can then send the dog on a "blind retrieve" and build confidence from your dog in you. That is how I start blind retrieving in young dogs, very little difference from marked retrieves in their minds but they trust me when I tell them there is something out there and the direction as they already know it!

In my day they sent the dog slightly to leeward of the dummy so that the dog found easily, scent blowing to the dog, upwind if you wanted to handle. I had been training my dog for a while before somebody thought to mention this, I sent my dog downwind of the dummy but she veered so far off she didn't wind it. I eventually worked out that she already knew it was a good idea to veer off slightly downwind of where I was pointing, after that I just pointed where I wanted her to go and let her sort out how far she needed to go but she was a Flatcoat, past masters at working the wind.

I like the idea of walking a pup towards the scent cone, must try that.