Gundog Training Forum

I agree with Munstyman re the formal/fun training aspect. The dog has to enjoy being in the game. That’s half the battle in training. Either that or you go the old ‘I say you do’ route. The dog may also be carrying some baggage associated with standard dummies from the previous owner. But I’d happily use tennis balls instead of dummies if that’s what rings your dog’s bell. I’ve used them in preference to dummies in the past because they’re so much more convenient to carry around and dogs generally love them. Balls on ropes I like even better.

Re the one step forward two steps back, yes, you get the odd glitch, but if they’re happening regularly, if you’re ending a train8ng session angry and/or frustrated, then that is telling you something and you aren’t listening. If you’re training in small enough increments and within the current levels of competence for the dog, and you have reliable behaviours before stepping up to the next level, then training should progress pretty smoothly. There should be no surprises.

Munstyman, really appreciate your reply - truly.

Following your message I actually completely switched things up, looking back now, I was putting too much pressure on and it wasn't fun. I'm sure my tone was negative re blinking etc. And you're absolutely right, I didn't pick up any!

In answer to your question, why so formal - honest answer is I don't know. I guess I thought it was the right thing to do.

I recently came across a channel on YouTube call Northlaw gundogs, not a pro, by his own admission - I really like how he goes out and has fun with his dogs, lets them be dogs, but also firm when needed. One of his dogs is also very soft, a bit like mine. Anyway, I've taken a new approach, more like his and it's working really well.

I also came across the hold conditioning sticky thread by Snick and have been through most of the process, and now at the point of proofing in different locations. It's really transformed things. Actually training a reliable hold combined with more fun training has been a game changer – Naj, exactly how you put it ‘the dog has to enjoy being in the game’.

I decided to film myself doing some training - and going to continue doing so to document my journey. Here is my first video of a short hold/delivery session - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIQHPPUha_g&t=8s Please anyone feel free to follow along and comment any feedback! (shot on my phone so needs to be viewed full screen or the bottom of the video is cut off).

Thanks again for your replies all.

Thanks for posting. You have a nice, quiet manner about you that suits your dog’s temperament. Just one point of issue, the ball retrieve you gave as a ‘reward’ might have been a rewarding experience for the dog but it did nothing towards reinforcing the previously completed ‘hold ‘ routine. It was just another retrieve from the dog’s perspective because it was too far removed for the dog to be able to associate it with the previous retrieve. All sorts had happened in the interim
… walked away, sat, sent for the retrieve …! In order for the ball to directly reward/reinforce the previous ‘hold’ behaviour then as soon as the dummy came into your hand you should have marked the correct behaviour and immediately have tossed the ball for the dog to chase with a release command reserved for permission to chase, like ‘get it’. Perhaps a small point but folk get confused over rewards and what is actually reinforcing a behaviour.

( video ) Glad the post was helpful. I'm never sure if when I post if it comes across as being constructive or critical and too blunt for those with a softer disposition From a novice perspective, you can, and I see it more often than you can believe. That your situation or problem is unique, when in reality those of us with a little more experience, know we've seen the same issues time and time again, and in general have been there ourselves with multiple dogs of our own.
My philosophy, and what my dogs have taught me, is life is too short not to enjoy it and have fun. Sometimes it seems everyone else around you are putting obstacles in your way to prevent this ( and make you as unhappy as they are ). Dogs do everything to redress the balance, so when your with them enjoy that time. Let the inner child back out and play again. The world will drag you back into `formality' and dreary all to quickly, so make these moments count.
RE: the video. I agree with Naj regarding the reward. Timing is everything when it comes to interacting with a dog and getting the `right' message across. Dogs have fast reactive `thinking' processes, around a few seconds. Anything longer and the message can get confused or lost. ( Why the clicker as a marker works so well ). I'm old and slowing down so even a clicker would require extra time for the message to go from my brain to my hand, so I prefer my voice as the route is shorter
The downside to using your voice is you have to manage your tone and be consistent with the words, and as your post indicated and your video `highlighted' to my `experienced' eye your still in the early days of getting it right.
If you rewatch your video with this in mind you will see what I mean in that your voice markers are all over the place and words are not consistent. Eg. I don't hear a release cue from the hold, and a praise mark after the release. There was also the `good girl' on the find and pick up of the larger dummy but nothing on the actual delivery. The `go play' was gobbaldy gook from the dogs perspective, the look she gave was classic These little observations are often missed in online posts and why giving `advise' can be hit and miss. It is so much easier when your actually, physically training someone as you see straight away where the problem is, and correct it there and then. The `problem' is often not what the handler thinks it is as that is either a symptom or a consequence of something they do not see themselves doing.
Those `observations ' aside. You've done well to address the holding issue since your previous post. You have a nice dog and hopefully the formality is now limited to the training vest