Gundog Training Forum

Thanks again Naj, really helpful. She is also very soft and submissive, although under certain circumstances especially when there is live game, even a pretty firm lead correction she hasn't paid any attention to in the past. I used treats initially to shape the heel position, but with live game around the value of game was so much higher I had to correct as she'd hop forward.

Anyway, I went to a new location yesterday and she ran really well. Not expecting geometric straight lines, as an example - back to our normal training ground this morning and as soon as she broke cover into an open field deviated significantly from her line towards an old area - a 40 degree deviation - what I think I'm realising is she's memorised routines rather than trusting my direction. In that instance I stopped her as soon as she deviated (with a NO not the whistle) reset and she took the correct line all the way. As you say, I'm going to completely stop using the memorised locations for a bit to get her to trust me, not her memory and make it more complicated vs going through similar routines.

I bought her for rough shooting, but my interest in the dog work has completely taken over the shooting - got my first two tests this year and hoping to trial season after next. So my 'style' has been (trying to) place her on a sixpence and not give much freedom to hunt widely yet. My plan is to allow her to take more initiative when the control is there. I've been trying to set it up where as soon as she's in the area the retrieve is easy to see.

The NOs really do blunt her drive/confidence, my hope is that training through it, it will click at some point, like I've seen with hold work and transitioning from memories to blinds. Again in the early days, I did far too many memories so on a blind she'd just stand there and look at me as if to say 'you haven't thrown anything'.

Never a day she doesn't work hard for me - luckily she's high drive to cover some of my novice mistakes!

Yes, the memorised hot spots are only an aide and now is the time to move on. In similar fashion, be careful over the visible dummies when she gets to the fall or you might have an issue with getting her to hunt with her nose rather than her eyes. And why not use the stop whistle rather than a NO? If she finds the NO punishing then a stop whistle that is subsequently rewarded by the retrieve would seem a better option and keep her enthusiasm up. In her mind, far from taking the P, she is doing nothing wrong but simply going to the memorised area, just as you taught her to!

Thanks Naj, yes definitely moving on from the hot spots.

I use the no or gruff voice over whistle as a light telling off, just to try and communicate that's not what I want - leaving the whistle only when I can reward with the retrieve - with this she is coming back to the start and resetting. If its only a small natural deviation from the line I will use whistle and handle rather than starting again. Does that process sound okay?

Luckily she loves to hunt, and hunts really well, although a little fast and busy sometimes.

I tried ladders today through the cover, with a dummy on 2 tracks, which are at various angles. Each was around 40 yards apart, then a final dummy near a bush, meaning on the third she'd have to push through cover, over two tracks and keep going around 100 yards. Worked fairly well, picked the first two, sent for the final and got deviated by the track, quite a narrow angle, stopped her, reset and took the correct line full distance. Aim of session was correct line and pushing through a previous area without stopping to hunt.

I'll keep at it!

Such an interesting way to put it, 'just as you taught her' so right there and a great re-frame!

I try not to use verbal, and certainly not physical corrections these days so may not be of much help on the No/gruff voice scenario, other than pointing out that you need to be careful over what you think you are correcting. You see a lot of trainers going out to correct a dog after they have told it to sit and the dog is actually sitting when they correct it, so they’re effectively punishing the dog for whatever it was doing immediately before the correction, which was sitting! In your case I would stop a dog if it went off at a tangent when I cast it off, recall it and start again. But if it deviated when farther away I would stop it on the whistle and handle it back on line. But when I used to do a lot of handling it was with spaniels, which tend to require a bit of handling to stop them from reverting to quartering. In your situation I’d probably try stopping the dog when she deviated, walk out to where I wanted her to continue on the line, call her across and resend her from there. You could also work from the existing hotspots and pushing her out to pre planted blinds.

Hi Naj, I captured what's happening on video! The first retrieve, I corrected and re-set. The next blind I stopped on whistle and handled as you suggested. Would love your opinion on this training session. I don't expect you to watch the whole thing! ha. Here is a link if you fancy a quick watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGq3wdoZoeQ&t

On a whole she's been running well recently, especially in new locations, it's whenever we're close to an older hotspot, which I can't avoid due to limited training ground! Please ignore the bad delivery - I'm getting on fixing it!

Thanks, she’s nice, and you’re doing a good job with her.

The first blind by the corner. I’d have stopped her on the whistle when, as you anticipated, she deviated from the line. When you correct/grumble at a dog you need to ask yourself … is the dog getting the message? Does she realise what she is being corrected for? If she continues to make the same mistake after a correction then the answer may be that she doesn’t understand what you are correcting her for. She aborts when you grumble but that doesn’t mean she understands what you want of her. And the grumbling while she returns isn’t exactly rewarding her recall. You know she is likely to deviate so I’d be hot on her trail on the outcast and ready to stop her on the whistle, and then I’d be in a closer position to handle her back on line without having a fallout and perhaps knocking her confidence. But I’d also have a rethink. Seeing that spot produces a bit of ‘suction’ I might try starting farther away from it, where I can get a clean outcast, and then gradually work back closer over several sessions. And/or, working from the same line that you was on in the video, drop three or four dummies down (blind) instead of one then handle her back for each one from much closer, up past the corner at a point where she won’t deviate, then when she’s doing that ok step back a few feet each time until she is running the blinds cleanly. You might create another hotspot (so stop when you’re on a winner and repeat elsewhere) but you’re trying to generalise the straight outcast behaviour and over time she’ll learn to trust your direction.

I thought she did good on the hydro pole blind, considering she bumped a couple of rabbits. I’m with your friends re the finding the dummy yourself debate. I like to get a dog into the area of fall and then leave it up to the dog. Handling on a sixpence is ok until you only have a vague idea of where the bird is. And it takes a lot of work in the shooting field to maintain, because most of the birds you shoot over your own dog will be easy marked retrieves. And if you’re picking up then there’s probably more sweeping involved than handling, unless you have a team of dogs at your disposal and can cherry pick retrieves.

The marked retrieves were ok, although she lost her mark on the second retrieve. They do get a very ingrained idea of the limits that you can throw or the dummy launcher or gun can drop things! It used to be common practice to send the dog for the first dummy thrown out of a pair to help with memory and steadiness but fashions change, perhaps. Re the delivery you can continue working on that at home at odd times through the day, playing give and take and calling her up when she has a toy in her mouth, taking it and giving it her back again. Dogs differ in their attitude to dummies, plus they can feel pressure in training that an affect their holding the dummy. They might even not like the feel of it in their mouth. Experimenting with feather and fur dummies may sometimes help. But if she is ok on game I wouldn’t worry too much.

Ps. I hope you’re wearing ear plugs with the dummy launcher because they’re probably worse than a shotgun for damaging your hearing.