Crufts 'gundogs'

[Merlin]

I love it when these people come out and say "my dog works thank you very much" or post a photo of it retrieving, I have trained both my terriers to retrieve game but that doesnt make them a gundog lol.

Which people are "these people" ??


Forgive me if i''m taking your comment the wrong way but not everyone is fortunate enough to live in a situation where they are able to work their dogs, in the traditional sense, but still want to do their best for their dogs in giving them some training and stimulation/fulfillment etc etc.. And, given the chance, would relish the chance to work a dog "in the real world" so to speak...

I think it would be interesting to know just how many of the 3.5k members of this forum actually work their dogs on shoots, or at trialing, and how many are gundog breed owners who are trying to do their best for their chosen breed and looking here for some guidance...

Like I say, sorry if I've misunderstood you, but your statement does seem to be a dig at people like me !!

(not got a big fat chip on my shoulder or anything, honest !!)

[Judy]

Years ago I watched as a show bred lab gained it's K.C. working certificate . It was a farce. The dog was brought out at lunchtime during a field trial and the handler was told to sit it "there." With this big fat lump of a dog now sitting a shot was fired and a pheasant, shot that day but now cold, was thrown onto shortish grass a few yards (very few yards!) from the dog and handler. The dog was sent to retrieve it so it ambled out, picked up the bird and ambled back again with it.

That was it. The dog gained it's coveted "working certificate" or whatever they call it and no doubt gained some stud fees on the strength of that certificate. I wouldn't have kept that dog if it had fell out of a Xmas cracker.

Wullie

I think these are these - people whose dogs turn out for an exercise to lose the "show" from the Show Champion and then say their dog can work, nothing to do with enjoying the training and hoping you will be invited onto a shoot one day, that's just starting out, we all go through that before we work our dogs in the "real World". Ya gotta start somewhere!

[greenshank1]

Crufts is a joke.

Basc should be ashamed associating themselves with it and Richard Ali is getting a full and frank letter in the morning and depending on his reply will determine whether I remain a member.

But a few home truths need said , so here goes .

If you own a lurcher and it can't catch your dinner on a regular basis it ain't a real working lurcher.

If you own a terrier and it isn't physically capable of running all day with hounds and when called upon go to ground and either kill or bolt it ain't a real working terrier.

If you own a gundog and it can't work with guns and either point, hunt , flush or retrieve real game it ain't a real working gundog.

If you own a pet gundog type and you keep it fully fit , exercise it and keep it stimulated by scurries and dummy work then you are being a lot kinder than the vast majority of pet owners but you do not have a real working gundog.

You do not have to live on a pheasant shoot or a grouse more to find work for a gundog. If you really want to find work for your dog anyone who is serious can get a ferret and go ferreting , or do crow control or shoot pigeons or squirrels .

If you are a puppy farmer and don't keep your dogs fit or healthy and don't work them then please don't show them as a gundog .

Rant over

[Tarimoor]

By many interpretations of what people think of as a *real* working dog, mine aren't either Merlin, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

At a show last year, someone put a brace of partridge in the feather on the raffle table as a prize. I was dismayed to hear two women, older than me, pass the table and shrink away from them, asking what on earth THEY were doing on the prize table. The very sort of *thing* their dogs were bred to retrieve, it was a breed show for flatcoats

[James]

I love it when these people come out and say "my dog works thank you very much" or post a photo of it retrieving, I have trained both my terriers to retrieve game but that doesnt make them a gundog lol.

Which people are "these people" ??


Forgive me if i''m taking your comment the wrong way but not everyone is fortunate enough to live in a situation where they are able to work their dogs, in the traditional sense, but still want to do their best for their dogs in giving them some training and stimulation/fulfillment etc etc.. And, given the chance, would relish the chance to work a dog "in the real world" so to speak...

I think it would be interesting to know just how many of the 3.5k members of this forum actually work their dogs on shoots, or at trialing, and how many are gundog breed owners who are trying to do their best for their chosen breed and looking here for some guidance...

Like I say, sorry if I've misunderstood you, but your statement does seem to be a dig at people like me !!

(not got a big fat chip on my shoulder or anything, honest !!)

having a gundog breed is very different to having a working gundog.
Its good that people want to train their pets to a good standard and look after them but thats nothing like getting out and beating, picking up, shooting over or trialing them and thats what this site is for. As for not being able to get out "in the real world" if you really want to you can to some level it just might take more effort for some depending on where they live. I cant shoot grouse on my door step so drive 500 miles to do so once a year because thats what I want to do.

[Merlin]

Its good that people want to train their pets to a good standard and look after them but thats nothing like getting out and beating, picking up, shooting over or trialing them and thats what this site is for.

Really?

In that case perhaps the forum name should be changed to Working Gundog Training Forum then...

[James]

Its good that people want to train their pets to a good standard and look after them but thats nothing like getting out and beating, picking up, shooting over or trialing them and thats what this site is for.

Really?

In that case perhaps the forum name should be changed to Working Gundog Training Forum then...

Top idea

[Naj]

Crufts is essentially a massive PR & marketing promotion for the dog show/feed/accessories/training industry, KC & BASC & other associated organisations that want to get mass media access to the general public. Why do you think the KC got into such a flip over losing TV coverage & made such efforts to look as if they were cleaning up their act in order to get back on air again. There's too much money & influence in it for everyone involved, either directly or indirectly. So you should be thanking BASC for keeping & promoting a positive image in the eye of the general public. Do you think the general public give a damn whether the dogs in the Basc Gamekeepers (?) Gundog ring, show ring, or demonstration ring have ever seen or smelt a pheasant, never mind retrieved one. No, they just think it's a great spectacle & fun entertainment & they enjoy the sanitised romanticism of it all. Gundogs without the guns & nasty dead things - what could promote a better image.

As for what constitutes a 'working' gundog, are we now going to qualify it even further & stipulate how many days a dog must work before it can be considered as being 'worked'? Would one day a week during the season qualify? What about one day a season? The dog has proven that it can work in either case.

Naj

[Judy]

This forum rose from the ashes of the Gundog Club's training forum, we have allowed it to expand into all things Gundog from Competition to shoot work because it seems to fill a need. Besides, it allows those who are just starting out to get an idea of what the future holds if / when they get bitten by the bug. We all have to start somewhere and nobody just gets a dog and goes on a shoot, training has to be done, experience in handling gained before that stage. This forum is all about training gundogs for work in the field but with the accent on the training. It isn't about training gundogs for agility nor flyball nor Working Trials nor anything else these dogs are capable of so, in that sense, yes its about training the working gundog.

[trekmoor]

they enjoy the sanitised romanticism of it all. Gundogs without the guns & nasty dead things

Naj

"Sanitized romanticism" ..... wish I'd thought of those two words !
Now that just about sums up not only the general public but also the great majority of those who show in Cruft's gundog ring.

Personally I would not like to see this forums name changed to "Working Gundog Training Forum." I don't call my cockers "Working Cockers" ....they just are working cockers full stop. I train and work a show and pet bred Vizsla and she is a good worker but as I have said several times on this forum and on others she lacks the drive of a good work bred dog when hunting. I cannot train or put that drive , that lust to find game at all costs into her. She can outrun almost any dog I have ever seen ....but only when she wants to .... which is seldom. She has the build to run but not the right kind of brain.

I certainly would describe her as a gundog and I like her very much. She has worked two shooting seasons with me now as a picking up dog BUT her owners are now thinking of breeding from her and I have strongly advised them to use a stud that not only retrieves well but which hunts like the clappers , anywhere and anytime. "Real" working gundogs are bred for, they arrive in this world with what is needed already in place inside their heads just waiting to be tapped into.
Serious breeders of working dogs breed for the kind of conformation that cannot be seen , the kind inside a dogs head. Serious show breeders breed for what can be seen based on their often very woolly ideas of what a dog should look like in order to work.

Wullie