Gundog Training Forum

Naj wrote:Are we all talking about the same breeds here.

MunstyM, can't see what teaching a sit/stay/recall has got to do with a dog on point and why you would need to use a sit, stay or recall command when a dog is pointing.

Naj

Well I'm probably leaving myself open to a huge telling off from you guys here but I do this all the time - I mean I use commands when my dog is pointing to try to get her to stay on point and wait for me to get up to her. I'm never really sure what command to use. I try gentle blow on stop Whistle (but that means sit!) or try verbal "wait" which means wait still for next command but what I really want is for her not to start chasing.do you have a command to steady on point. Some use "steady" how can you train this?

Don't train it ....let the bird do that , a command may be needed following the commanded flush to ensure a stop/sit but I prefer the bird rising or the rabbit running to be the stop command.

A few words of quiet praise and one or two gentle strokes can be given to a dog on it's first few points but after that give no more praise for the point and praise only the flush and the stop that follows it.

Wullie

Its been a while Tina, and I had to find that quote of Naj's and see what context it was made, ( these threads involving HPR's tend to be like our dogs and go off in all directions ) Having a solid sit/ stop aids confidence in the handling of the dog, especially in handling the unexpected, which with the novice handler and novice dog can be ( seem ) an all to often occurrence.
In your case I believe the dog has had more opportunities to self hunt, so in reining it back, it could be a long road if you went the route of letting the `bird teach the dog' that post flushing does not require the chase, or that the flush does not require the point first. So in this case, I would be doing much the same as your doing in building that important partnership and that you are in control of the hunt and not the dog. When I'm dealing with a flash point/ flusher scenario, you have to find a way/instruction to maintain the point longer, the `wait' command is very useful and unlike the sit/stop does not create a conflict with pointing and sitting. If you teach `wait' as a basic control command in and around the house and daily routines ( going through doorways, gates and feed time ) It is probably the easiest one to use both in command tone and calming tone depending on how the dog is reacting to the game in front of it. It also means that you are not wearing down or tuning out the more important sit/stop by its over use in so many circumstances, or with so many different tones and meanings .
The stop whistle or hand signal means just one thing, arse on floor, what I think Naj was referring too in that quote was the example I gave of how it can go wrong if your dog picks up a signal that you were not using correctly and open to a `thinking dogs' misinterpretation . My dog could have been `taught' to sit on point had I not realised what was happening. ( a little `conflict' can be used to a handlers advantage, but it must be used carefully, and only as an aid to getting further down the training route, NOT as a solution )
As Wullie said, the bird rising post flush should become the sit/stop command, which if your consistent with the sit/stop whistle post flush the dog will `pre-empt' soon enough if you reward that action. When I start to see the dog control itself from the chase, even if the dog does not completely sit, I would praise that action before applying the sit whistle, but it would still be applied to get a full sit till I was confident in the dogs understanding of the flush as a sit/stop command...with all levels of temptations

Absolutely fantastic advice MunstyM really spot on! I say that with such conviction because that is pretty much what I have been starting to do. I use 'wait' around the house quite a bit, going through doors, her waiting after going through a door/ gate for me to shut it etc. It has the benefit that it often means wait while I go ahead of you and she's standing. It's also got a relaxed feel - she's usually waiting for something nice to happen rather than Stop Whistle which all too often has meant the end of something fun.

It has been a while since I've posted on this forum but it got to the point where I just needed to use the advice I'd picked up here and just get on training with it! That's exactly what I've been doing absolutely religiously, planning a session before leaving the house, never taking my eyes off the dog, breaking down chains of behaviours and trying to teach one bit at a time. My family think I've gone potty!

I've realised a lot of my problems have been because my dog is just far too over excited especially in the presence of game, she just can't control herself and I may as well not be there never mind hooting on a whistle! So I've been working on that a lot - like introducing her to the pet rabbit in a very controlled way.

As a result our partnership and communication have improved massively and therefore her rate of learning has increased. (She's retrieving beautifully) It's really only the steady on point issue where I'm not getting through to her, largely because she just can't control herself if a bird really is there (lots of false points on empty scent because I have made too much of a deal of this thinking it was something). If a bird really is there she can't control herself. She can't wait for me and worse SHE GOES IN TO PEG (KILL) NOT FLUSH if i'm using right terms. She wants to grab the bird in her mouth and dosen't understand about flushing bird up for me to shoot. How could she - I've never shot over her. This is a big problem where I live because the dam birds keep getting caught in hedges and barbed wire fences and she has opportunity to get it.

WULLIE, that's why I can't let the birds train her living here in this farmland/ woodland setting. It would be ok if we were on the moor and there have been and will be opportunities for me to take her there but trouble is she will try to chase unless I can get this steady on point, sit to flush message through.

In order to calm her down around game I'm training behaviours as much as possible away from it - but she also needs more opportunities to come into contact with it so she can calm down and get used it to. Poor dog is frustrated because rabbits and pheasants running past our front door! Ive been trying to do stuff on a long line but she ends up dragging me along like I'm a water skier and she often have to break off a scent because the ground gets too over grown and brambly.

Anyway this is the other reason I've stopped posting because I go on too long!! Just also wanted to say I'm still reading your informed and interesting discussions on this forum and making use progress with my training as a result, big cheers

Tina

Your doing fine Tina, stick at it. When using a long-line or check cord , don't hold it, let it trail over the ground and stamp hard on it if you have to. You may find that the sound of that footstamp becomes a command to "stop" to your dog after a while and the stamp can then be used with no cord on the dog. At close distances it can take the place of the stop whistle.

If possible I would use live pigeons to simulate game with your dog. You can gain control with the pigeons quite easily because you know exactly where you placed them.

Wullie

Just got to keep chipping away at it, Tina, do what works, ditch what doesn't. Keep building self control. Consistency, persistence & repetition is what it's all about. You'll get there. You've made big strides already.

Naj

thanks guys

how is it trekmoor always manages to start threads that go on for 11 pages..?
I think he likes to stir the pot transatlantically!

He has a very big spoon and he talks a lot...