reflections and redirections
Re: reflections and redirections
Thank you Wullie, please write a book!
Re: reflections and redirections
+1 would certainly pre-order at least couple of copiesLJR wrote:Thank you Wullie, please write a book!
Re: reflections and redirections
I would also buy a book of young Wullie's adventures, and old Wullie's too!
Hoping that you are feeling better.
Hoping that you are feeling better.
-
trekmoor
- Member
- Posts: 16074
- Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:38 am
- Dogs: Too many and not enough !
- Location: Central Scotland
Re: reflections and redirections
Thanks for the comments folks.
..........................................................................................
I was beginning to discover some of the oddities of HPR trials by now. Their easy going approach to steadiness being the main one. If a trial spaniel flushed a rabbit or a bird then moved on behind it for even just a couple of yards before sitting to flush it would probably be chucked out of the trial. If the spaniel needed to have the handler blow repeated sit commands at it or shout "Sit !" at it following the flush that dog would probably be "Out" too.
These things were commonplace in HPR trials even in the Open trials. Another crazy "rule" was that dogs could chase hares during Spring Pointing tests for as much as 50-60 yards yet suffer no loss in terms of marking. That 50-60 yards was open to interpretation as far as some of the judges were concerned. It could be more, it could be less ....maybe depending upon who you were ?
I myself landed up on the plus side of this judging rule once. My young GSP did not chase hares but when he ran right into a small herd of red deer during a Spring Pointing test up on a grouse moor in Glendye ,he at once gave chase to them and refused to stop to whistles and to my roars of anger. My judge liked my dog and wanted to use him at stud so he told me to calm down and to sit down on a handy little hummock of grass to wait on my dogs return.
My dog, meanwhile ,had vanished over the top of a hill about 1/2 a mile away as he continued to chase the deer. My judge and I sat down and he lit up his pipe and I smoked a cigarette while we waited with the gallery left 40 yards behind us awaiting developments. We had a nice little chat about my dog and I said it was a pity I was now "Out." He replied that my dog wasn't "Out" for all of his own dogs did the same thing !
My dog returned and I began to put his lead on but the judge told me to hunt him on. I did and "Dirk" went on to find and point two pairs of grouse. He was awarded a certificate saying "Very Good." That is the highest award any dog I ran in Spring Pointing tests ever got although his dam had almost equalled her pup when she was just a pup herself.... I think she was about 8 months when she took part in one of these tests down on Lord Joicey's estate.
During her run she pointed on a cock pheasant out in the middle of a rough field. When commanded to flush she went in like a ton of bricks and the bird barely made it up and into the air. She chased after it for a few yards then made a spectacular 5-6 feet high leap into the air ....and that was just the height of her hind paws ! Her jaws slammed shut with a very audible click just a couple of inches short of the rising birds tail.
Again I thought I was "OUT" but the judge proclaimed that she'd made a very good "Positive Flush !!!" She was awarded a "Good" cerificate.
My brittany, Vicky, had made a far better job of her partridge hunts when I ran her in a Spring Pointing test but I sort of fell out with the judges and she only got a "Good." Her first run was under the "B" Panel judge and we were to hunt down a 200 yards wide field of about 6 inches high spring planting shoots. Vicky was first and foremost a running dog , she set off to hit the fencelines at either end of the field as we hunted down directly into the wind. That is only 100 yards per side which isn't really all that much for a good HPR. She was almost bouncing off the fence wires of the field.
My judge told me to call her in and gave me a ticking off. He said she was hunting too far out of gunshot range ! I asked if the field would be hunted over it's ends by other dogs and he replied that it would not be. I therefor said that on a shooting day I would want my dog to hunt the whole field and not just a strip down it's middle. We had a little argument about this but I was allowed to carry on hunting her. She found no partridges but she did get a point on a Mallard duck that was, for some reason, hiding out in the field.
My judge decided to "pass the buck" or the argumentative handler and gave me to the "A" panel judge to deal with. Vicky found and pointed a covey of partridges under him but as we approached her point she moved about 10 feet over to one side and then pointed again. The judge didn't like that and said she did not hold her point.
I argued that comment too and said she had first pointed on the very edge of the scent cone and had made sure of her birds by moving sideways into it's centre. She flushed on command and was completely steady to the departing birds. ..... No whistle or voice was used or needed to ensure her steadiness. Her command to stop/sit was a bird flying or a rabbit running.
As I said earlier she was awarded a " Good" but she was the only one of the three dogs I ever competed with in these tests that I thought deserved more. In the long run it does not pay to argue with judges but I was not going to meekly accept that Pointing breeds should only hunt out to about 50 yards. I wouldn't bother having them if that was the norm for hunting ranges.
I dislike seeing dogs hunting at a trit-trot sort of pace , I like dogs that don't give me time to scratch my bum as they hunt.
Since I had now won a couple of trials the HPR training class asked me to become the class trainer. I accepted and the first thing I changed was the hunting distances closely followed by the speed of the hunts. It isn't always possible to improve a dogs range and pace but if the dog is not a natural close hunting or slow dog it is possible to change these things by changing the way in which the handler works his/her dog.
Far too many handlers at those classes were seeing their dogs slow down or begin to dwell on scent and do nothing about it. Their reason was that they hoped the dog might be going to point game but that seldom happened. I had watched as dogs were made into non-productive or even false pointers by their owners. Owners were walking to very "soft" or iffy points and then stroking and praising their dogs for "pointing " on bugger all !
The other thing I changed was the way in which retrieving was taught , especially blind retrieves. I had seen blinds being planted and the owners told simply to "See if you can send Rover that way !" I did my best to make the sending for blinds a much more structured and positive affair than that.
I was known as someone who disliked time wasting people. The club classes had several of them but it didn't have as many by the time the summer ended ! I did not go on for month after month continually revising the things I had already taught. I will revise things over and over for dogs but if a human is keen enough to learn then they should be listening during the training classes and doing their utmost to put what they have been told into practice during their time at home in between classes. Some members of the training class did not seem to have done any training at all with their dogs between one monthly class and the next. I made it clear that I would not accept that. I was taking the classes for free so the only reward I got was to see the dogs and handlers improve.
One or two of the class were already aware that my nickname as a trainer for the Retriever Club had been "Hitler" and once or twice I was called that by the HPR folk too. I didn't care, I was there to help folk train their dogs , not to try to win a popularity contest. The " Sunday School Picnic" type of owners ceased to attend my classes and I didn't mind that either. I often noticed that a few of the class were only turning up if the day was nice and the sun was shining with the idea of giving Fido a " Nice day out in the countryside. I'm afraid that sort of trainer got short thrift from me.
I'd been the class trainer for just a couple of sessions when the landowner, one of the previous trainers and also a show judge of some standing, decided to have a little dog show one Sunday prior to beginning the training classes. I thought it was a waste of good training time but went along with it .....but he wanted me to be the judge ! He said he felt it was time I learned how to "judge" the dogs as dual purpose dogs and not just as workers.
I watched as the dog owners paraded around and around the "ring" and I examined them all ....they were all GSP's. I was then asked to announce the winner and I pointed to it and said , "That one." My "mentor" declared it a good choice and said the dog had good this and excellent that but was perhaps a touch too "jowly." He then asked why I had decided that dog was the best so I said nice and clearly..... "It is the dog with the most spots."
I was never again asked to judge but there were no more dog shows held during training time either.
...............................................................................................................................................
To be continued but maybe not for a week or so, both this computer and myself are off to our respective repair shops tomorrow or Tuesday.
Wullie
..........................................................................................
I was beginning to discover some of the oddities of HPR trials by now. Their easy going approach to steadiness being the main one. If a trial spaniel flushed a rabbit or a bird then moved on behind it for even just a couple of yards before sitting to flush it would probably be chucked out of the trial. If the spaniel needed to have the handler blow repeated sit commands at it or shout "Sit !" at it following the flush that dog would probably be "Out" too.
These things were commonplace in HPR trials even in the Open trials. Another crazy "rule" was that dogs could chase hares during Spring Pointing tests for as much as 50-60 yards yet suffer no loss in terms of marking. That 50-60 yards was open to interpretation as far as some of the judges were concerned. It could be more, it could be less ....maybe depending upon who you were ?
I myself landed up on the plus side of this judging rule once. My young GSP did not chase hares but when he ran right into a small herd of red deer during a Spring Pointing test up on a grouse moor in Glendye ,he at once gave chase to them and refused to stop to whistles and to my roars of anger. My judge liked my dog and wanted to use him at stud so he told me to calm down and to sit down on a handy little hummock of grass to wait on my dogs return.
My dog, meanwhile ,had vanished over the top of a hill about 1/2 a mile away as he continued to chase the deer. My judge and I sat down and he lit up his pipe and I smoked a cigarette while we waited with the gallery left 40 yards behind us awaiting developments. We had a nice little chat about my dog and I said it was a pity I was now "Out." He replied that my dog wasn't "Out" for all of his own dogs did the same thing !
My dog returned and I began to put his lead on but the judge told me to hunt him on. I did and "Dirk" went on to find and point two pairs of grouse. He was awarded a certificate saying "Very Good." That is the highest award any dog I ran in Spring Pointing tests ever got although his dam had almost equalled her pup when she was just a pup herself.... I think she was about 8 months when she took part in one of these tests down on Lord Joicey's estate.
During her run she pointed on a cock pheasant out in the middle of a rough field. When commanded to flush she went in like a ton of bricks and the bird barely made it up and into the air. She chased after it for a few yards then made a spectacular 5-6 feet high leap into the air ....and that was just the height of her hind paws ! Her jaws slammed shut with a very audible click just a couple of inches short of the rising birds tail.
Again I thought I was "OUT" but the judge proclaimed that she'd made a very good "Positive Flush !!!" She was awarded a "Good" cerificate.
My brittany, Vicky, had made a far better job of her partridge hunts when I ran her in a Spring Pointing test but I sort of fell out with the judges and she only got a "Good." Her first run was under the "B" Panel judge and we were to hunt down a 200 yards wide field of about 6 inches high spring planting shoots. Vicky was first and foremost a running dog , she set off to hit the fencelines at either end of the field as we hunted down directly into the wind. That is only 100 yards per side which isn't really all that much for a good HPR. She was almost bouncing off the fence wires of the field.
My judge told me to call her in and gave me a ticking off. He said she was hunting too far out of gunshot range ! I asked if the field would be hunted over it's ends by other dogs and he replied that it would not be. I therefor said that on a shooting day I would want my dog to hunt the whole field and not just a strip down it's middle. We had a little argument about this but I was allowed to carry on hunting her. She found no partridges but she did get a point on a Mallard duck that was, for some reason, hiding out in the field.
My judge decided to "pass the buck" or the argumentative handler and gave me to the "A" panel judge to deal with. Vicky found and pointed a covey of partridges under him but as we approached her point she moved about 10 feet over to one side and then pointed again. The judge didn't like that and said she did not hold her point.
I argued that comment too and said she had first pointed on the very edge of the scent cone and had made sure of her birds by moving sideways into it's centre. She flushed on command and was completely steady to the departing birds. ..... No whistle or voice was used or needed to ensure her steadiness. Her command to stop/sit was a bird flying or a rabbit running.
As I said earlier she was awarded a " Good" but she was the only one of the three dogs I ever competed with in these tests that I thought deserved more. In the long run it does not pay to argue with judges but I was not going to meekly accept that Pointing breeds should only hunt out to about 50 yards. I wouldn't bother having them if that was the norm for hunting ranges.
I dislike seeing dogs hunting at a trit-trot sort of pace , I like dogs that don't give me time to scratch my bum as they hunt.
Since I had now won a couple of trials the HPR training class asked me to become the class trainer. I accepted and the first thing I changed was the hunting distances closely followed by the speed of the hunts. It isn't always possible to improve a dogs range and pace but if the dog is not a natural close hunting or slow dog it is possible to change these things by changing the way in which the handler works his/her dog.
Far too many handlers at those classes were seeing their dogs slow down or begin to dwell on scent and do nothing about it. Their reason was that they hoped the dog might be going to point game but that seldom happened. I had watched as dogs were made into non-productive or even false pointers by their owners. Owners were walking to very "soft" or iffy points and then stroking and praising their dogs for "pointing " on bugger all !
The other thing I changed was the way in which retrieving was taught , especially blind retrieves. I had seen blinds being planted and the owners told simply to "See if you can send Rover that way !" I did my best to make the sending for blinds a much more structured and positive affair than that.
I was known as someone who disliked time wasting people. The club classes had several of them but it didn't have as many by the time the summer ended ! I did not go on for month after month continually revising the things I had already taught. I will revise things over and over for dogs but if a human is keen enough to learn then they should be listening during the training classes and doing their utmost to put what they have been told into practice during their time at home in between classes. Some members of the training class did not seem to have done any training at all with their dogs between one monthly class and the next. I made it clear that I would not accept that. I was taking the classes for free so the only reward I got was to see the dogs and handlers improve.
One or two of the class were already aware that my nickname as a trainer for the Retriever Club had been "Hitler" and once or twice I was called that by the HPR folk too. I didn't care, I was there to help folk train their dogs , not to try to win a popularity contest. The " Sunday School Picnic" type of owners ceased to attend my classes and I didn't mind that either. I often noticed that a few of the class were only turning up if the day was nice and the sun was shining with the idea of giving Fido a " Nice day out in the countryside. I'm afraid that sort of trainer got short thrift from me.
I'd been the class trainer for just a couple of sessions when the landowner, one of the previous trainers and also a show judge of some standing, decided to have a little dog show one Sunday prior to beginning the training classes. I thought it was a waste of good training time but went along with it .....but he wanted me to be the judge ! He said he felt it was time I learned how to "judge" the dogs as dual purpose dogs and not just as workers.
I watched as the dog owners paraded around and around the "ring" and I examined them all ....they were all GSP's. I was then asked to announce the winner and I pointed to it and said , "That one." My "mentor" declared it a good choice and said the dog had good this and excellent that but was perhaps a touch too "jowly." He then asked why I had decided that dog was the best so I said nice and clearly..... "It is the dog with the most spots."
I was never again asked to judge but there were no more dog shows held during training time either.
...............................................................................................................................................
To be continued but maybe not for a week or so, both this computer and myself are off to our respective repair shops tomorrow or Tuesday.
Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
-----------------------------------------------------
Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
.
-----------------------------------------------------
Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
.
Re: reflections and redirections
have you forgotten this thread wullie ? its been a while now without a good read!!
-
trekmoor
- Member
- Posts: 16074
- Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:38 am
- Dogs: Too many and not enough !
- Location: Central Scotland
Re: reflections and redirections
Thanks for reminding me, I'd forgotten about it again. 
I will have to read it myself now to try to remember where I ended ! 
Wullie
I will have to read it myself now to try to remember where I ended ! Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
-----------------------------------------------------
Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
.
-----------------------------------------------------
Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
.
Re: reflections and redirections
ha good ladtrekmoor wrote:Thanks for reminding me, I'd forgotten about it again.
Wullie
Re: reflections and redirections
wohoo! I can't wait for another episode 
-
trekmoor
- Member
- Posts: 16074
- Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:38 am
- Dogs: Too many and not enough !
- Location: Central Scotland
Re: reflections and redirections
A quick read through the last few pages of this thread has made me realise how much I have missed out and a few of the errors of sequence in the writing too. I can't be bothered going back to try to sort them out for they don't matter too much anyway.
I will begin this time with spaniel trials....even though I have never competed in one.
...........................................................................................................................................
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A couple of years before I'd got myself a brittany I had competed in a spaniel test but not with one of my own dogs for ,by then, I was a labrador freak. A friend who lived about 10 miles from me had a springer pup he wanted trained.....if possible to trial standard and I had already attended a few spaniel trials as a spectator and had enjoyed them very much. So, since my friend knew even less about training spaniels than I did , I got the job of training his pup. I used to drive out to him in order to train her about 3-4 times per week ..... at my own expense.
I got her hunting quite a nice pattern and retrieving easy basic retrieves and steady to thrown dummies and shots. Then we heard of an upcoming test which included spaniels as well as retrievers. Spaniel tests were not all that common in Scotland at that time so rather than miss out on a fairly rare thing we decided to enter her for Novice (if I remember correctly there was no puppy level test.)
She was ,by then, 8 months old and hunted quite well considering she hadn't even found one rabbit or one bird. The test ground was a section of land in which trees had been felled a year or two before leaving behind tree stumps and uprooted tangles of tree roots. I thought it was good ground but maybe a bit difficult for the pup I was running. I needn't have worried. There was plentiful rabbit scent on that ground and she went into high gear and stayed in it.
I "lost" her at one stage in her run when she found a hole under a large partially overturned tree stump and it's roots. She went underground just like a terrier to see at close quarters what rabbits looked like !
A rabbit ran out as she was still underground and she re-emerged about 3-4 seconds later when, very fortunately, the rabbit had vanished from her view or she would certainly have chased it. She was plastered in wet earth and was as high as a kite so I stop whistled her .I hadn't intended to show off her steadiness to flush to the judge for she was not in the least steady to a live game flush but that was what it probably looked like to him. She did the two very easy retrieves O.K. but was a bit uncertain about picking up the strange dummy and lost points because I had to encourage her first retrieve.
She came in second but I was delighted with that result..... for a change ! Normally I'd rather be chucked out than be second ! I began to try to make her ready for trials but when I turned up one evening to train her she was no longer there. Her owner said he'd been made an offer for her he just could not refuse so he had sold her. It was the nearest I ever came to competing in a spaniel trial.
At about this same point in time I had gone to a couple of spaniel trials as "official picker-up" with one of my Labradors. Not even once was my lab ever required to find any game . The spaniels did too good a job. Then a couple of my spaniel trialing friends told me about a trial to be held fairly close to Edinburgh so I went along to that to spectate. Both Keith Erlandson and Joe Irving were competing in that trial.
I didn't speak to Joe Irving but I did meet my hero Erlandson for the first and only time. I'd been reading his articles and often argumentative or controversial replies to gundog articles written by Peter Moxon in the Shooting Times for at least ten years by then. Later on I was to become fairly friendly with Erlandson but that was in type in a Shooting magazine and by personal letter and not in person. We found ourselves in agreement about many things.
During the afternoon of that trial I was up on the top of a disused railway embankment, courtesy of the infamous Dr. Beeching's famous cuts to British railroads. Down below me and the other competitors and spectators the remaining spaniels were hunting up some fairly open ground for rabbits. I found this very exciting to watch and I had a very good clear view of the trial since the dogs were less than 30 yards from me . I got a bit too enthused and when a dog missed a rabbit which ran off from behind the judges , I called out something like, " Behind you ! A rabbit behind you !"
All went deathly quiet. I had committed a terrible crime, one that could have had a dog eliminated from the trial. I was very bluntly told to keep my mouth shut and quite right too. I thought for a moment I was going to be lynched and apologised profusely for my ignorance of etiquette. My shout had been given with no intention of "putting anyone out" and that was, I think, accepted but I still remember how badly I felt about having done that. The judges ignored me and the rabbit behind and carried on as if nothing had happened I am very pleased to say.
It is one of my deepest regrets that I never competed in spaniel trials. If I had then perhaps I could have been one of the very few people who ever managed to win trials with pointing dogs, retrievers and spaniels. I'd have liked that but it won't happen now, I cannot walk far enough or fast enough to be sure of keeping up with a trial .....or a hard hunting dog !
I have won a few spaniel tests now but nobody is more aware than I am that tests are to trials what blow football is to the real thing . Several times on gundog forums I have read posts by people who think their brilliant test dog or even scurry dog would do well in trials. All I can say to that is , " Go ahead and try it !"
................................................................................................................................................................
To be continued
Wullie
I will begin this time with spaniel trials....even though I have never competed in one.
...........................................................................................................................................
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A couple of years before I'd got myself a brittany I had competed in a spaniel test but not with one of my own dogs for ,by then, I was a labrador freak. A friend who lived about 10 miles from me had a springer pup he wanted trained.....if possible to trial standard and I had already attended a few spaniel trials as a spectator and had enjoyed them very much. So, since my friend knew even less about training spaniels than I did , I got the job of training his pup. I used to drive out to him in order to train her about 3-4 times per week ..... at my own expense.
I got her hunting quite a nice pattern and retrieving easy basic retrieves and steady to thrown dummies and shots. Then we heard of an upcoming test which included spaniels as well as retrievers. Spaniel tests were not all that common in Scotland at that time so rather than miss out on a fairly rare thing we decided to enter her for Novice (if I remember correctly there was no puppy level test.)
She was ,by then, 8 months old and hunted quite well considering she hadn't even found one rabbit or one bird. The test ground was a section of land in which trees had been felled a year or two before leaving behind tree stumps and uprooted tangles of tree roots. I thought it was good ground but maybe a bit difficult for the pup I was running. I needn't have worried. There was plentiful rabbit scent on that ground and she went into high gear and stayed in it.
I "lost" her at one stage in her run when she found a hole under a large partially overturned tree stump and it's roots. She went underground just like a terrier to see at close quarters what rabbits looked like !
A rabbit ran out as she was still underground and she re-emerged about 3-4 seconds later when, very fortunately, the rabbit had vanished from her view or she would certainly have chased it. She was plastered in wet earth and was as high as a kite so I stop whistled her .I hadn't intended to show off her steadiness to flush to the judge for she was not in the least steady to a live game flush but that was what it probably looked like to him. She did the two very easy retrieves O.K. but was a bit uncertain about picking up the strange dummy and lost points because I had to encourage her first retrieve.
She came in second but I was delighted with that result..... for a change ! Normally I'd rather be chucked out than be second ! I began to try to make her ready for trials but when I turned up one evening to train her she was no longer there. Her owner said he'd been made an offer for her he just could not refuse so he had sold her. It was the nearest I ever came to competing in a spaniel trial.
At about this same point in time I had gone to a couple of spaniel trials as "official picker-up" with one of my Labradors. Not even once was my lab ever required to find any game . The spaniels did too good a job. Then a couple of my spaniel trialing friends told me about a trial to be held fairly close to Edinburgh so I went along to that to spectate. Both Keith Erlandson and Joe Irving were competing in that trial.
I didn't speak to Joe Irving but I did meet my hero Erlandson for the first and only time. I'd been reading his articles and often argumentative or controversial replies to gundog articles written by Peter Moxon in the Shooting Times for at least ten years by then. Later on I was to become fairly friendly with Erlandson but that was in type in a Shooting magazine and by personal letter and not in person. We found ourselves in agreement about many things.
During the afternoon of that trial I was up on the top of a disused railway embankment, courtesy of the infamous Dr. Beeching's famous cuts to British railroads. Down below me and the other competitors and spectators the remaining spaniels were hunting up some fairly open ground for rabbits. I found this very exciting to watch and I had a very good clear view of the trial since the dogs were less than 30 yards from me . I got a bit too enthused and when a dog missed a rabbit which ran off from behind the judges , I called out something like, " Behind you ! A rabbit behind you !"
All went deathly quiet. I had committed a terrible crime, one that could have had a dog eliminated from the trial. I was very bluntly told to keep my mouth shut and quite right too. I thought for a moment I was going to be lynched and apologised profusely for my ignorance of etiquette. My shout had been given with no intention of "putting anyone out" and that was, I think, accepted but I still remember how badly I felt about having done that. The judges ignored me and the rabbit behind and carried on as if nothing had happened I am very pleased to say.
It is one of my deepest regrets that I never competed in spaniel trials. If I had then perhaps I could have been one of the very few people who ever managed to win trials with pointing dogs, retrievers and spaniels. I'd have liked that but it won't happen now, I cannot walk far enough or fast enough to be sure of keeping up with a trial .....or a hard hunting dog !
I have won a few spaniel tests now but nobody is more aware than I am that tests are to trials what blow football is to the real thing . Several times on gundog forums I have read posts by people who think their brilliant test dog or even scurry dog would do well in trials. All I can say to that is , " Go ahead and try it !"
................................................................................................................................................................
To be continued
Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
-----------------------------------------------------
Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
.
-----------------------------------------------------
Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
.
Re: reflections and redirections
What do they say? ....... It's never too late!
Keep them coming
Keep them coming