Gundog Training Forum

They use excuses for your success to justify their own failures.

If only I had had a pound for every time that happens !

Martin,

I have a couple of questions regarding technique:

1) 10 month old cocker pup, 95% good on recall. However, within this statistic lies an issue, namely that the 5% area is arguably the most important; chasing a rabbit, running towards a road to another dog or similar life-threatening scenarios. She is less certain in these examples.

Would you now begin its e-collar experience with not 'e-touch tapping' every recall (such as those times when in a benign situation and you know she will come) and just save the 'tap' for when you know the distraction is high?

Actually, on thinking this through, I think the technique would probably be to tap every recall initially, thus generally strengthening the command and making it more likely this will reinforce her 'overall recall' skills and this in turn will have an effect on high distraction situations.

I guess later in the process you would then phase out the tap for benign situations and
keep it in reserve for when it mattered as part of the phasing out of collar use for this command??

Would that be generally correct?

PS - of course, I would be using the stop whistle and then recall in these situations, but I am just interested in the general principle, so for this example, lets just assume I am using the recall whistle only, or even just a 'here' voice command.

2) Most of these devices also have an audio tone as a 'warning' and can be programmed to automatically sound just prior to a tap. I'm guessing that in the realm of gundog training this is pretty superfluous since we are using the whistle as our audible cue??

I also know that many can be programmed to issue an audible warning only (no tap) as part of the 'weaning off' process, but again, since we are conditioning the dog to respond to the whistle and using low levels of stimulus as an "Oi!" and not as an aversive, this would seem to be not appropriate??

Is this also generally correct??

Cheers, Terry

Here's some 'whitterings' about collar brands and types available in the UK. I have never used a collar and so cannot vouch for any of the info', its mostly gleaned from the net, so could be rubbish. But for what its worth!:

Range:
This will inform what model you go for. The range seems to go from 100 meters to over 2 miles, depending on your choice and budget.

Remember, weather and terrain might halve the effective range, so this needs careful consideration.

Petsafe are the parent company of Sportdog (see below). They only do a 100 meter (£70) and a 400 meter (£115) under the Petsafe brand. They look similar to the Sportdog models but I have been told they are not made to the same standards. 100 meters might come down to 50 meters (not enough!). 400 meters may come down to 200 meters and whilst this might seem OK for say a spaniel, you have to consider all scenarios. So.... your dog might have vaulted over a dry stone wall and then down a valley side after a hare, the wall will block the signal until you can get over it, the dog may then be more than 200 yards ahead and the unit won't reach it. So, I reckon the 800 meter units are the best bet since these will give enough range capacity to cope with most distances we would anticipate (certainly with a spaniel). You can go for a longer range model, but these will cost a good deal more. The 800 meter units are also referred to as 'half-mile'.

Electrics
Most of the good models are re-chargeable and some have replaceable re-chargeable batteries. Some have to go back to the manufacturer for a new battery to be fitted, so it would seem that the models to go for would be those with user replaceable re-chargeable batteries. These should, on any case last a couple of years before replacement is necessary.

Makes and models

Tritronics are the 'Rolls-Royce' and achieve excellent user reviews. They do a new model called the Sport Basic G3 which sounds great (half mile range) and this is priced down to that of some of their cheaper competitors. BUT, the internal soldering material on all Tri-tronics models make these an illegal import into the UK, hence they can't be bought here.

Buying from Europe if they are allowed in there might be an option?

Dogtra are also excellent and can be got here starting at £225 for their half-mile model.

Pac seem to be a British made e-collar and these start at £160, but I can find no reviews, so don't really know if they are a quality make.

Petsafe (as mentioned above) don't make a model more than 400 meters. However, they also own 'Sportdog' and these have an excellent reputation in the USA. They do quite a range, but one which is available here is the 'Sportdog Sporthunter 800' (half mile range, fully immersible collar unit and transmitter) These can be got for around £145.

This model seems on balance, to be as good as you can get for the money, range and availability in the UK.

For those who feel that a 500 meter range is adequate then the Sporthunter 500 is available here at £15 less than the 800 model.

Innotek
This manufacturer gets a lot of mixed reviews with some duff units being supplied, I didn't research these any further because of what I have read.

Canicom
Seem to be a quality make, but at £250, their 500 meter model is £100 more than the Sportdog models which offer similar features.

Buying from the USA

This seems attractive until you add VAT/duty and postage, a UK voltage converter for the charging unit and then factor in getting the unit back to the manufacturer for any repair. If you have a pal in the USA who would bring one in in his suitcase, then the Tritronics sport combo G3 could be got for less than £200.

Buying used

This might not be a bad option. many folks by an e-collar to cope with a chase problem and after 6 weeks or so have cured it, the collar is then surplus and they sell them on Ebay. I've seen a Sporthunter 800 just sell for £90 in as new condition.

As I say at the beginning of this post, all the above are just musings, non of it based on experience or knowledge, but it might provide a basis for some further research for anyone toying with the idea of buying an e-collar.

Cheers, Terry

I am assuming the one's that work at half a mile distance are of more use for the pointer breeds? Can't think you'd need one for that distance for a cocker Terry, you wouldn't be able to see the dog!

Rascal

The yanks will have a collar with a 2 mile range just so they can say they have the "best range".If a dog is 2 mile away and you are having to give it the electric collar shock treatment it is not a collar you want it`s a rifle

Rascal, but did you read my post?

The ranges given by the manufacturers are the most optimistic possible. This can easily be halved by weather and terrain. Thus the next one down from an 800 meter model would be a 400 meter one, this could be halved to 200 meters. This might not be enough for a determined dog (even a spaniel) chasing a hare.

An 800 meter model could well be halved to 400 meters, but this should be enough for most circumstances.

As I say, i know knowt! - but why buy a model which might not have the range to cover all eventualities.

I assume that an 800 meter model will have a better quality signal strength even at closer distances and probably more likely to 'climb' obstacles better?

However, you pays yer money.....!

Cheers, Terry

terrier wrote:The yanks will have a collar with a 2 mile range just so they can say they have the "best range".If a dog is 2 mile away and you are having to give it the electric collar shock treatment it is not a collar you want it`s a rifle

For future reference, Terrier, a pistol is much easier to shoot yourself with than a rifle.....

Judy

scotsgent wrote:Rascal, but did you read my post?

Yes I did!

The ranges given by the manufacturers are the most optimistic possible. This can easily be halved by weather and terrain. Thus the next one down from an 800 meter model would be a 400 meter one, this could be halved to 200 meters. This might not be enough for a determined dog (even a spaniel) chasing a hare.

If it's 200 meters away your too late!

As Wullie said earlier on in this thread using an ecollar in the presense of game is probably not a very good idea. Unless you've given it plenty of thought and had some training in the use of the collar IMHO you are in very grave danger of putting a dog off retrieving game ever! The dog is going to assume that the tap/shock has come from the game.

An 800 meter model could well be halved to 400 meters, but this should be enough for most circumstances.

As I say, i know knowt! - but why buy a model which might not have the range to cover all eventualities.

I assume that an 800 meter model will have a better quality signal strength even at closer distances and probably more likely to 'climb' obstacles better?

If it's over an obstacle again you can't see the dog so how do you know when to "tap"?

However, you pays yer money.....!

Cheers, Terry

Rascal

Judy wrote:

terrier wrote:The yanks will have a collar with a 2 mile range just so they can say they have the "best range".If a dog is 2 mile away and you are having to give it the electric collar shock treatment it is not a collar you want it`s a rifle

For future reference, Terrier, a pistol is much easier to shoot yourself with than a rifle.....

Judy

Indeed, Judy And, a collar is easier to shoot yourself with than a pistol. Just "Don't shoot the dog!"

As Wullie said earlier on in this thread using an ecollar in the presense of game is probably not a very good idea. Unless you've given it plenty of thought and had some training in the use of the collar IMHO you are in very grave danger of putting a dog off retrieving game ever! The dog is going to assume that the tap/shock has come from the game.

Wullie actually said:

I did say that a trainer should not correct a dog in the presence of game but ,if I remember correctly, I added the caveat that I would correct a chase

Rascal wrote:
If it's 200 meters away your too late!

Yes you are right if the collar you are using is a 400 meter one with a practical range of 200 meters because of weather and undergrowth diminishing the range. If my dog were out of control. chasing a hare towards a road I would be glad I had an 800 meter range, which though diminished to 400 because of weather and undergrowth would still be effective.

An 800 meter range collar is around £15 more than a 500 meter one, it seems a no-brainer to me.

My post was merely to give an indication of models and range effects, you can talk all day about "I wouldn't let my dog....etc", but I am focusing merely on the mechanics of what is on offer. Folks can make up their own mind when they do more research themselves.

But as I emphasised in my post, I know nowt and I am probably talking rubbish!

Cheers, Terry