Gundog Training Forum

Posted: **Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:30 pm**

Just started (again) the discussion with my joint Kennel Name holder - yes we have loads of options for the next mating but where do we go in three years time for the bitch we keep.

Sorry, ignore this - was meaning to start a new topic but posted here in error.

Posted: **Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:32 pm**

alpha wrote:
So what you are saying is Peter Simon Daz and Will are the only true cocker breeders left if you take that statement as its written
lets hope your wrong as Ive seen cockers from these lines that work like springers and are marked like them so where do we go from here

Don't know why you should take my post as saying this.I just gave a few examples of kennels,whose lines are not influenced by the Mallowdale/Rytex lines.
As in your original post you stated a Mallowdale influence in all modern day cockers.Pretty sure their are alot of smaller breeders out there too who would disagree.
All i will add is look at the dogs in question,and watch them working.Then draw your own conclusions.Its about what you want in a cocker.
I know what i want,and i want that choice,and that difference between cocker and springer.

Posted: **Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:52 am**

I have to say that a pedigree is only as good as the person who registered it. I have witnessed the intentional misrepresentation of pedigrees. This happens in any animal with a pedigree for a number of reasons. The future of Purebred dogs can rely on DNA testing as one way to ascertain the true hereditary makeup of the breed. Everyone who is credible will have to partake in DNA testing to make it work effectively. Yes, it may take a few generations to clean up but it can be accomplished. Time, patients and perseverance will accomplish the task. One particular dog or person is not the issue. Look to the future not the past.

Posted: **Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:19 am**

Judy wrote:
Naj wrote:He's a top professional trainer and arguably our most successful contemporary trainer/breeder so his influence on the breed is bound to be quite dominant, especially given the current trend for hero worship, as I heard mention on another group. Doesn't this say more about our trial system where amateurs are trying to compete with professionals, some of whom can afford to concentrate on putting all their substantial facilities and efforts into producing FTChs.

Naj
In some respects breeders should be looking at the consistent dogs which do well with the average trainer / handler, surely these are dog which should be used more often instead of rushing to the top names' dogs. Anyway thats probably for another topic.

most definitely. A dog that has won and done well with a little known or inexperienced handler/trainer speaks volumes to me. I'd use it at stud a million times over one from a top kennel purely because these talented trainers can often make something great of an average dog with their knowledge to get over quirks and the game to encourage more drive.......

Posted: **Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:33 am**

alpha wrote:Really......

lined with "Mallowdale" or Opneshaw bred cockers as I'm assuming the Rytex springers bit was a Freudian slip lol

NOT ONLY THE trialling stuff you see advertised brag of Openshaw breeding but also all the hobby pet breeders

Fernmoss, Larford ,Cheweky, Gannofell, Cowancourt, Wyndhill, Chyfina, Esgob, Bishwell, Nithvalley, Kingcott, Saxaphone, Broomfiel, Larford. Hoelbych, Rowston, Contrail, Kiltonbeck, Samsir, Sealpin and Roanlodge to name but a few bitches have all been lined with Druid Rakateer and Dealer so you only have to look at a general over view that his kennels are in lots of lines out there

And thats without the millions that ran screaming to Peplow when X factor won

So what you are saying is Peter Simon Daz and Will are the only true cocker breeders left if you take that statement as its written
lets hope your wrong as Ive seen cockers from these lines that work like springers and are marked like them so where do we go from here

Alpha, please show me a cocker that Will has bred that looks like a springer, because I've never seen one. Someone may well put a dog they have from Peter, WILL, Darren, Andyor others and put it to a cocker that produces that type but that's very different. To be fair here also, show me cocker that's actually bred by Ian that looks like a springer, again I've never seen one with a mallowdale affix. The ones that do have been bred by others.

Posted: **Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:51 pm**

Rothievale wrote:
Plainsman wrote:
Rothievale wrote:. Maesydderwen, Rowston, Timsgarry are extremely popular and successful bloodlines. You won't find Mallowdale in anything they have bred
Have a look at Wetlands Abe. At stud at Maesydderwen and in a lot of Maesydderwen pedigrees including a Maesydderwen FTCH stud. Has Mallowdale Rackatear in it.... it is also in some Rowston lines.
Wetlands Abe wasn't bred by Peter. Hence he's called Wetlands Abe and not Maesydderwen Abe.......

Any Timsgarry or Rowston BRED dogs with Mallowdale in them?

I am fully aware that Abe is a Wetlands dog. I am not stupid but Peter has used him extensively to produce "Maesydderwen" dogs and bitches including a "Maesydderwen" FTCH look at Abes pedigree, straight back to Rackatear. And Yes in Some Rowston as well.

Posted: **Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:02 pm**

You can't call "Rackatear" "Mallowdale" bred though, I've said earlier, his sire came from Cyril Gwinn and the dam was bred by a mate of mine from Port Seaton in East Lothian out a bitch that he came second in the champion with, the only other cocker that the Openshaws were competing with at the time was Dollgarreg Aaron, also bought in, Rackatear was Cyril Gwinn and Dennis Douglas breed really and had no Openshaw influence. As I said, "Mallowdale" name only.

Posted: **Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:26 pm**

interesting that he had no openshaw influence- As most of the questions i see mentioned on facebook, are directly aimed at Rackatear and the breeding of that dog ??

Posted: **Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:31 pm**

scot-ish wrote:interesting that he had no openshaw influence- As most of the questions i see mentioned on facebook, are directly aimed at Rackatear and the breeding of that dog ??

And we are back to the crux of the argument!!!!
I've only said what the breeding was "alleged" to have been!!! I said in an earlier post, "if the pedigree can be believed"!!!

Posted: **Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:40 pm**

i suppose thats to be said with every pedigree tho - i guess it will all come out wether something has gone on or not - but whilst this is as it is, cockers in the whole are taking a bashing.

last year it was AMS - we are more or less at the bottom of where that has come from, there was plenty of slander on that front, and a lack of information with it, and that just about got swept under the carpet just in time for the sprockergate to come to light.

the results of the championship, however it ends, will no doubt be questioned, and next year there will be something and someone else to get the brunt of it - all because of the price of a cocker pup these days.

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